121 – Putting Queer Ecology into Practice with Kes Otter Lieffe

Welcome to the Frontline Herbalism Podcast with your host, Nicole Rose, from the

Solidarity Apothecary.

This is your place for all things plants and

liberation.

Let's get started.

Hello.

Welcome back to the Frontline Herbalism Podcast.

Guess where I am? I'm in the ******* car park.

I'm sorry for not publishing an episode.

It's all been a bit like,

yeah, a bit all over the place.

My life recently,

just boring life update.

But I.

The week before last, I was feeling, like, quite unwell.

But I was basically trying to preserve my voice because then I was invited to speak at a

conference in Malta called Medicine in the Mediterranean, organized by the College of

Offshore and Remote Medicine.

And they wanted a talk about herbal medicine.

So I got to talk about the clinic in Calais, the work in Ukraine, like, various things.

And yeah, it was like an amazing opportunity.

And I had terrible,

like, imposter syndrome because it was like, very,

you know, kind of like lots of doctors and paramedics and like, quite biomedical.

But I just, you know, did the best with the herbal medicine.

I presented a bunch of, you know, like, a strong evidence base and like, various

research papers and stuff around certain plants, as well as just saying, you know,

like, all the practical things we.

Do in the field.

And yeah, it was, like, really well received.

Like, people were,

you know, super lovely to me afterwards asking those questions during the thing.

And yeah, I was like, super grateful basically to be invited and to have that opportunity to

talk,

but unfortunately I.

Just was really poorly.

I just had, yeah, a bad, you know, I was testing for Covid and stuff, but it was

obviously some other viral infection and it just meant the week was a real struggle.

And yeah, my mom and stepdad came along to help look after the little one and that was.

I was really grateful for that.

But I didn't get that many kind of like, like,

solid baby breaks and.

Yeah, just kind of.

Yeah, like, I haven't been abroad for three

years or so, like, since I did a tour in Italy before I got pregnant.

And yeah, I'm not like the best traveler at the best of times, but with a toddler it's

like really, really hard.

And yeah, I haven't had the sort of like, money or like, nervous system bandwidth to

really push out of my comfort zone since I've had the baby.

For various, like, life.

And yeah, I think I was a bit validated going away because I was like, yeah,

this is why I haven't been doing this.

You know, you see all these, like.

Instagram parents that are like, oh, don't Let having a baby stop you from doing

what you want to do.

Like, you can travel the world.

And I'm like, really? Like, how is that kid's nervous system coping

with all this, like, change all the time?

But it's probably my stuff because I was dragged around a lot as a kid.

But yeah, anyway, but it was.

Yeah.

And it also just, you know, it's rained all week, I didn't have the right

clothing and blah, blah, blah.

But yeah, was, you know, super grateful for

that chance.

So.

And then when I got back, I was recovering and doing okay and then just all of

a sudden just smashed, like with real kind of like post viral tiredness.

Like after Lee fell asleep, I would be falling asleep at 6 o' clock.

And normally I do my client calls in the morning and other bits of work when Lee's at

nursery.

And then in the evening I get like 2, 3 hours

depending on my energy levels to do like other admin kind of like lower demanding tasks.

And I just couldn't do it,

needed to sleep.

So I got really behind on stuff.

And I got really stressed.

And anyway, this is a very long, boring introduction, but I am back,

so that's nice.

I'm feeling a lot better.

And yeah, had some extra childcare this weekend and it was my birthday weekend, so

that was nice.

Didn't actually do anything other than working in a cafe, but that was like so nice for me

after not having any baby breaks.

So,

yeah, and had some Chinese takeaway and stuff with a friend and my family.

So anyway,

but yeah, I wanted to share something that a friend and I recorded months ago.

I'll put the proper blurb in the description, but basically my friend Kez, who is hopefully

listening, is an absolute babe.

She's been on the show before talking about queer ecology.

She's like the most epic of all the plant nerds.

She's written loads of amazing books where, you know, the protagonist is like a trans

femme and there's all this like amazing like ecology and sort of social struggle stuff in

there.

And yeah, she's just like a ride or die to me and I love her so much.

And yeah, she invited me to talk at an event she was doing and I could talk online and she

did like a super comprehensive training with different people about.

About ecology.

And then we had a kind of like,

like a question and answer session where we were asking each other different questions

about,

yeah, applying ecology to organizing in terms of like different concepts and what they look

like.

So this episode share recording and we go into

stuff like the difference between kind of like working on your own versus working in

collectives, like kind of working class firm like compulsive caretaking, hyper

responsibility patterns.

Yeah, just all the things.

I think you'll find it super interesting.

Let me know what you think and I'll put her website in the show notes.

So please check out all the amazing ***** she's doing.

Order her books, support her work, invite her, pay her to come and speak and do things with

you.

Because yeah, she's just a amazing human and yeah.

Epic body of knowledge.

So yeah, and I will be back soon because the

herbalism, PTSD and traumatic stress is looming the course, the course launch.

So I need to get my **** together.

I've been so overwhelmed with clinical work,

which I love, but seeing a lot of new clients, seeing people with the Black Flag Herbal

Clinic and it's just been amazing, like getting my,

you know, my teeth into it and getting really stuck in.

But I'm starting to slightly neglect other bits of the solidary apothecary.

So.

Yeah.

So anyway, thank you for listening.

I hope the.

The episode is interesting and I will be back soon.

And yeah, don't forget we're still in the new year phase, in my opinion.

I know it's February, but check out the herbal path planner as well.

All right.

Okay, take care.

Thanks.

Hello.

Nicole will say hi.

Hello. I'll let Kez introduce our session.

Is that all right, Kez? And then.

Sure, yeah, no worries.

But thanks for having me and thanks so much for the invitation.

And the reason I couldn't do longer is because I'm looking after a one year old.

But I was like, yeah, do with Kez because I knew she would smash it.

And you have.

So. So anyway, I'm very happy to be here.

Thanks.

Yeah,

I don't want to spend too much time introducing myself.

Not only because I hate it, but I already did it with a lot of the people in the room.

I have slides.

I'm not going to go there.

I think given that we don't have much time and time with Nicole is so precious, I think we

should skip that and get into the good part which is Nicole telling us about herself.

But just briefly.

Yeah, I'm having a really, really nice day.

It feels like a really special,

kind of unique morning.

I had such weird dreams.

I always do before an event and I just feel like we've been having such stimulating

conversations and I feel like I'm also living in double speed because I somehow had prepared

material until 6pm now we're finishing at 3.30pm I've basically prepared a whole year of

workshop and the poor students who were with me this morning are getting a lot of

information very fast.

So that's how I'm feeling.

I have been giving workshops and community organizing since I was 11.

I am an ecologist, both in terms of practice and in terms of having a natural degree in

ecology.

But also we are spending a lot of time with non humans and experiencing their interactions

with the living environment.

I've been interested in queer ecology for a long time and that's often what I've been

workshopping on recently.

So for example, I'm giving tours at the Natural History Museum and also outside tours

and just finding these kind of interactions between nature connection and environmental

defense and queer struggles and trans liberation and disability justice and all

these things that are obviously very, very interconnected but are so often kind of

separate or perceived to be separate.

And as I'm kind of in the middle of some of those things,

it's interesting for me to explore those edges, those overlaps.

I've been working on a big nonfiction book which is partly what this morning's been based

on.

On everything from like non human sex and sexuality through to overlapping grassroots

struggles to using to learning from ecosystems and in our designs and community organizing.

So big book all over the place, a bit like my brain.

And me and Nicole have collaborated on a few things.

So at one point we were going to run a permaculture course together.

It didn't happen, but it has to happen one day.

I was being reminded of that with some of this kind of like design stuff that I was doing

this morning.

I was like, oh yeah,

I got to edit Nicole's book, which I mentioned to the group this morning,

which was such a joy.

Like this was like my last winter.

Well, the winter before last winter.

And Nicole was like, here's a manuscript to

it.

And I'd like.

Until then I'd edited small articles or small pieces or something.

And this was the state violence and herbalism book, which is like a brick.

You can smash a window with that thing.

So I was like, wow, Nicole, okay,

that's a lot.

And it was so good and I really enjoyed it.

Maybe we can talk about it a bit.

But yeah, so we did that.

Raising funds and doing trans prisoner solidarity stuff and the queer animal and

plant zines, which are partial fundraisers for the apothecary.

And we're always just kind of like doing things back and forth and just throwing all

the working class femme love at each other, which is what the world is built out of.

Nicole, over to you.

Aw. And we're also good friends.

Kez has looked after me when I've been really,

really poorly before.

I was thinking about us going to that massive swimming pool the other day.

That's.

That came across my memory so good.

But yeah, if anyone wants to smash a window with my book, that would make me very happy,

like,

if it was a tactical smashing.

Anyway,

so I'm just going to talk briefly a little bit about the solidarity apothecary.

So, yeah, it's a project I started,

like, I can't remember now, like, several years ago,

and I was just like, informally making medicines for people who were experiencing

repression, like for different things kind of in the UK and Europe.

And yeah, I could sort of see the impact of state repression on people's health and their

nervous systems.

And yeah, no one was really talking about it

because it was like our movements can be quite sort of macho.

Like, I've organized an anarchist movement a long time and it's like, God forbid you talk

about your feelings.

So I started trying to focus on that kind of, like, care for people in that way.

And I was like, really passionate about herbalism and, like, trying to politicize it.

And then, yeah, it's just sort of grown from there, really.

So I have a book called the Prisoner's Herbal,

which is based on my experience in prison.

I got a three and a half year sentence when I

was 21 for, like an animal liberation campaign.

And when I was in prison, I worked in the prison gardens and I got to know the plants

that were taught to me by other kind of femmes and working class,

like traveler women and older women.

And they, yeah, taught me about herbs.

And then I did some distance learning courses and I just sort of was a very passionate DIY

herbalist for about 10 years before I decided to do some clinical training.

Ah, look, she's got them there.

But now the book goes to people in prison, like worldwide.

And there's like several translated editions.

And yeah, I'm very lucky to get lots of letters from people in prison who have, like.

Yeah, just developed this whole new relationship with clients to help kind of keep

them going on their sentences.

And so then I also support people experiencing state violence.

Like,

like kind of one to one.

I stopped doing that since I got pregnant.

But I'd have a lot of, like,

calls with prisoner family members or people experiencing repression and put together,

like, herbal recommendations for them and kind of prescriptions and we would, like, work

together to,

like, support Their health.

And then the main thing I was doing before I had a baby was working in Calais in Northern

France, which is like a hot.

A border hotspot between France and the uk

where lots of people are trying to cross the British Channel because there's, like, no safe

routes for people to apply for asylum from France for the uk.

So people end up risking their lives crossing in small boats or trying to cross on trucks.

And I work with a project called the Mobile Herbal Clinic Calais, and we would go with a

team of four people, including a doctor, and work in the camps, sort of seeing people

taking people to hospital, trying to advocate for them, and also dispensing herbal medicine

for, like, acute needs like coughs and colds,

wound care, lots of first aid stuff,

trying to think what else to do.

Yeah, I mentioned.

Lara, mentioned the podcast.

So I have a podcast called the Frontline

Herbalism Podcast.

And I also do, like, herbal care packages.

So groups submit a request, and I send them

little care packages of blends for their nervous system or their immune system, and

like, an amazing lavender oil, which is, like, infused with olive oil from the west bank in

Palestine.

And yeah, those go out to groups, like, all around the world.

And then, yeah, I'm just like, constantly trying to, like, fundraise to cover that stuff

and have a few online courses in sort of herbalism and trauma that fund most of the

work that I do as well as things like this.

So, yeah, the kind of, like, income received from this will go towards things like posting

things like care packages.

I basically, like, partly fund the Royal Mail

in the UK by posting stuff.

So much so anyway.

But yeah, and then just on the side, like, I do a lot of prisoner support stuff.

I've got some close friends still in prison and work with a couple of other, like,

anarchist collectives supporting people in prison as my sort of main organizing.

Is that okay as an introduction,

Kez? Yeah. Okay,

cool.

Yes, Amazing.

I feel like you could say that at, like, a reasonable speed and put in all the details

and just Talk for, like, 10 hours about all the things you do before breakfast.

Yeah. Shall we get into a conversation? I'm really curious.

We talked about a few possible subjects or overlaps or questions you want to get into.

I think the first one I want to ask you about is functional redundancy, because we were just

talking about it this morning.

Do you know the term, Nicole? Have you heard it before?

So it is.

So two examples kind of illustrate it.

There's the spider web, which has a lot of

functional redundancy.

So Spiders build their webs that if you break one thread, other threads are there as

redundants that can kind of maintain the function of the spider web to catch bugs.

So it's not that it's all like centralized on one thing that falls apart.

It has backups.

So it's the idea of having a backup, a plan B.

And at the other end of the spectrum would be a keystone species,

where you have a kelp forest, for example,

or even some beaver habitats.

And if the sea otters are gone, then basically

they were a keystone species.

They had an excessive effect on the other

species around them.

And without them, all of their interdependent

species kind of fall apart and there can be an ecosystem collapse.

So in that case there's not much redundancy.

And the sea otters are like, without the sea otters, there's no kelp forest and everything

kind of falls apart.

So those are kind of two extremes of how it makes a system more resilient or less

resilient.

And I was thinking of you when I was talking about the sea otters because I often think of

your role as being a bit of a keystone species role.

Don't know if you've ever thought about it this way, but in that.

I know that in some of your projects, and certainly not all of them,

and we could also talk about it in terms of centralization or decentralization in our

organizing terminology.

I know in some projects when you're sick or you lose capacity or you're away or something,

sometimes things there isn't backups and sometimes there is.

And I think there's.

I guess my question is,

in what cases is it possible and does it work that other people will kind of show up when

you lose capacity, for example,

like during pregnancy is probably a good example of that.

And when is it just impossible? And it's just like it's a Nicole task and only

Nicole can do it.

I'm just wondering about how that tension is for you.

Oh, do people want, like, radical honesty, like behind the scenes?

I do.

I can't speak for all people.

I think, like,

it's sort of inseparable.

The answer from all the millions of other chats we've had about class and gender.

So I think maybe people can resonate.

But like,

as a sort of young carer with a mum with like, very serious depression, I learned to be like,

extremely hyper responsible, where I'm like, gauging everyone's needs all the time and.

And just like used to being hyper independent and not asking for help because if you ask for

help, your needs aren't met.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, and I think,

and that's obviously like massively gendered and I've, you know, I've really done that

having a baby as well, of just like,

yeah, there's no kind of much help like, or infrastructure, like in a societal way for

femmes who have like vast amounts of responsibility and caring labor.

But I do think that that hyper independence creates like this capstone species thing of

like,

you're so ******* on it and you're reliable and you'll get stuff done because, like, you

don't have any psychological option to like, not do something because that will trigger

collapse.

Does that make sense?

So I think it's kind of like what's a choice and what's not a choice of being hyper

responsible.

But I think the lesson, if the answer is like collective care and stronger collectives, then

part of the unlearning for us sort of like working class femmes with like a lot of caring

experience is like,

how the **** do we unlearn that and start to trust other people to kind of become more

resilient, Right?

So, like, the solidarity apothecary for me is like this really blissful solo project which I

love doing on my own because it means I don't have to interact with loads of people which

can be quite like relation,

like,

can be triggering and difficult in its own way.

Even though I'm part of a big ecology of different projects and I do collaborate with

people all over the world.

But I think other collectives, they are like more sort of foundationally collective, if

that makes sense.

So me getting pregnant doesn't kind of harm

them? Like,

you know, it still makes an impact, but yeah, it's just kind of more straightforward.

But I think,

yeah, it's a challenge of like,

yeah, how do,

how do this sort of like femmes learn to trust other people?

And I think that's why me and Kez work so well together, because you're so reliable and

consistent and you shouldn't have that pressure on you because I shouldn't have that

pressure on me.

But we just have that pressure, right? So it's like, I love collaborating with you

because you'll communicate really well.

You'll communicate your needs.

You'll be like, really emotional and attentive, you know, oh, my partner's going to

hospital today.

Oh, are you sure you're comfortable with blah, blah, blah.

Whereas, like, working with other people, they won't have that level of like emotional

literacy.

So yeah.

So I think it's a mix of trauma forces you to

be a capstone reliable person,

but part of liberation is like unlearning your own stuff.

Right.

And that's what talk about in the PTSD

courses,

you know, the different nervous system states and the common trauma dynamics and patterns

and how they influence things.

And I know in collectives I have to learn to

be better at surrendering responsibility and delegating more and receiving support, God

forbid.

So,

yeah.

Does that make sense as answer does.

It really does, yeah.

About your experiences with that.

Yeah, no, it's very similar.

Yeah. As you say, it's something we've like there's almost no way that we wouldn't talk

about it because I think we have quite resonant experiences there.

Yeah. I think I've often been a keystone species as well.

Indeed.

It's like survival skills and it's a dynamic

that everyone kind of falls into.

It's not even something necessarily good or

bad, it just kind of is.

And then sometimes you can kind of see the

danger of it and be like, okay, so let's find some way to decentralise.

And I think that has often been a goal for me and I think I have,

I can go one way or the other.

Sometimes I'm like,

actually it's going to be so much work to like,

it's not just trust people, but also like have people do the thing.

Like I can trust them, but if they don't do it, then I'm still screwed and the project

didn't happen.

So like, I don't want to call it empowering

because it sounds so condescending, but this kind of skill sharing or getting someone to

the point where they're being reliable, they're doing what I needed them to do so that

the thing happens that's not just trust,

it needs to actually happen.

Particularly when it's something.

happen,

bad things will be consequences.

So,

you know, if it's like someone's a bit late for a book deadline or something, who cares?

Right.

But sometimes the consequences are more real.

And yeah, so I can kind of go like,

okay, that's too much work,

that will take too long to actually properly decentralize in a way that's sustainable.

So I'm just going to actually just do the thing and have a kesp centered project and I

have plenty of those.

And that's easier.

It is easier.

And then I think When I'm trying to do

something decentral,

particularly when it starts decentralized and horizontal and collective,

I think that foundation is very different than trying to include people in something or

change the essence of the group.

And yeah, sometimes I think the decentralizing or sharing skills building capacities is the

project.

And I probably won't get much else done.

And if I want to get things done, I'll probably just do it or work with a few

individuals that I know are very efficient and will do the thing.

And we'll just do the thing very quickly before breakfast.

And then the rest of the day I'll spend lots of time, very patiently, skill sharing.

And yeah, I don't want it to sound as patronizing as that,

but I do feel like they're different and the speed and the efficiency are different.

And sometimes it's not true.

Sometimes that's a story that I'm telling

myself.

Like, if I work with people, it will be slow and annoying and if I work by myself, I'll get

it done.

And I think that's also just a story that I

tell myself.

Sometimes working with people is wonderful because we have a diversity of responses as we

were talking about this morning.

We have diversity of, like, approaches and ideas.

And sometimes that's actually what we needed.

And I wouldn't have done as well if I was just

by myself.

So,

yeah,

mixed feelings about it, I guess.

And I think that,

yeah, that thing of like,

is this function something that you can do or something that other people can do?

So I know, for example, with the mobile Herbal Clinic Calais,

it has to be a team.

Like, there's no way on earth I could work in

France on my own as a medic and do that safely.

Right? Like, you need a team, you need someone

translating and giving information sheets about the medicine and about where to go to

hospital.

You need someone else doing first aid.

You need someone else, you know, with more

clinical experience,

like, holding that space, like as the clinical supervisor.

So I think for me it's kind of like my sort of deciding kind of design factors are like,

yeah, like, can I do that thing on my own without harming myself and other people?

So, for example, like, the podcast is kind of like quite a nice, like, solo project where it

doesn't, like said, it's not like this kind of direct mutual aid.

So it's kind of like much easier to do it as your own kind of creative outlet.

Whereas I think, yeah, like, projects where the stakes are quite high.

Like, for example, with prisoner support,

like, I had quite a bad Nervous breakdown several years ago after just like,

like six bereavements in a row and like all sorts of stuff.

And me dropping back from prisoner support groups, like it did affect the support that

those prisoners got.

Even though I had been desperately trying to

build that up to like strong collectives, you know, training people, mentoring people.

But I think you're right of like when there's that like direct harm,

like, you know, like I remember you were doing a project, fundraising for people to support

like trans women to get home safe.

And it's like, you know, if that woman doesn't

have that money for that taxi, like they're really vulnerable.

So it's like I do think when things like are quite high stakes, like that does demand like

stronger collectives where you're like, yeah, I couldn't possibly support every trans woman

in the world, do you know what I mean, on my own and I didn't have to.

And where would be the sort of like political power building in that?

Whereas I think like we've talked about this, there's often like a kind of not shame, but

there's like a taboo around like solo working.

Like I've had critique about running the apothecary, like as my own project kind of

thing and that it should be collective.

And it, it kind of was like interesting how triggering what that was to me probably

because there's like a bit of it that I think that is true, that should be collective.

But on the other hand it was like,

you know, like say you have like unions of workers.

Like lots of them are also like individual, right?

Like individual people.

Like small solo, self employed businesses are actually like the biggest form of, of

business.

Like so it's like, you know, when back in the

day if it was like like carpenters or tradesmen or something like organizing a

union, like they would all be individuals but working together.

And I think you can be a herbalist working on your own.

I live,

serving that function.

But they wouldn't necessarily do it with

someone else.

But as long as we're sort of collectively building power and I'm kind of connecting with

other herbalists and trying to,

you know, do stuff collaborative, collaboratively with each other,

I don't think there's anything problematic about doing something that's like a solo

output, you know, like loads of people write books on their own, for example, or do

illustration or, you know, so it's kind of like if that's your craft, I Think that's

okay.

And I also think it's important to like, acknowledge the impacts of relational trauma

that actually for some people,

collective organizing, it's like doing it with like a massive rucksack of stones on you.

You know, if your life experiences have been being socialized to not trust people and have

people you over and have people abuse you or whatever in prison, it's like actually part of

kind of something that's liberatory to me is like,

actually, what does.

You know, how can you meet your own needs? And I think with this like, caring stuff we're

so used to as like working class femmes, putting everyone's needs above our own.

Like,

you're born with that of how you exist in the world, that's how you access love is by just

putting everyone's needs above your own and caring for everyone.

So I think it's actually like quite a defiant act to me to be like,

no,

I'm going to work on a project where I have autonomy, I can be creative, I can go at my

own pace,

I can choose who I collaborate with and who I don't.

And also I can kind of have a livelihood from that.

That sustains me, you know?

So. Yeah, but maybe if this is interesting people, this thread, maybe because you could

talk about that of like that sort of solo,

solo nuss kind of thing.

Which is also not the right word because neither of us do anything alone.

Like, it's constant.

Absolutely.

With translators and prisoner and people in Calais and sending medicine to this

refugee crew who like texted me asking for them.

So it's like nothing.

It's like an illusion, the aloneness.

But at the same time, we have to be transparent about,

hey, this is like my kind of creation or my baby, so to speak.

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking as well.

It's like they're both.

Yeah. Myths in a way.

Collectives in our culture usually aren't so collective as people like to think that they

are.

And individual projects are usually a lot more

interdependent and collective than people might understand them to be.

So, yeah, I think that both of those are simplifications of what's really going on.

I think there's also an interesting dynamic that some models are kind of prioritized and

like the idea that people are telling you how you should be organizing,

like immediately all my little cat heckles, whatever.

I'm like, don't tell Nicole how to do what Nicole does.

Because other people, nobody tells them how to do things.

Particularly writers, for example, as you Say, or certain more prestige activities, that's

totally fine.

And being the person out in the wilderness,

doing it by yourself is given a lot of prestige.

But when you're a community organizer, you have to be doing it in a certain way that

somebody has decided that this is what a collective organizing looks like.

Again, it's a simplification, it's a myth.

And so who's deciding which is the best model, I think is also an interesting thing to

analyze.

And I had another thought.

Yeah, maybe that's that for now.

Oh yeah.

And I think also,

yeah, so who's deciding which is the best? Who's prioritizing and who's saying this model

is better than this model.

And I wonder if it is always based on some kind of pure and abstract politics of

collective is better than individual and something.

Maybe. And I wonder if sometimes those people who are like, no, you must do everything

collective have the most to gain from being in a collective.

Because in my experience, sometimes the people who are like, go, go, go.

Collective is better and individualism is bougie.

And like if you're living by yourself, you're bourgeois and you must live in a collective

housing project and do everything collectively.

They learn from us.

They get their needs met before.

Sometimes I think there might be some invisible hierarchies or some mixed

motivations there that like, you should be in a collective with me so that I can out of you.

But maybe not.

Maybe I'm being very cynical, but I don't know

that it's always perfect and pure.

That one thing is better than the other, I

think.

Yeah. And whatever works, right?

And meeting our needs,

even when we're working so much for other people, but also making sure we prioritize our

own needs.

Super, super, super important.

And if we can't do that in a group of 30 people having endless meetings and four hour

check ins, then that's not for us.

Never again.

Do you have any,

any other threads you'd like to put up?

I just wanted to say on that, like the, like challenging the binary thinking,

right, of like,

you know,

one thing doesn't have to be better than the other thing.

And you know, are they like even contradictory anyway, Right.

And I think what's interesting about me and Kez of like what we talk about a lot is we've

both sort of grown up in these movements into really young age.

So like, while a lot of people are trying to unlearn the sort of their parents have taught

them or like schooling or whatever, I think we're somehow trying to unlearn movement

dynamics, which I'm trying to understand, like what's oppressive about certain organizing

patterns and like,

you know, coming from a movement where you do get a lot of social capital going to prison,

you know, or like the person who sacrifices the most is like,

you know, you're kind of rewarded with that and get.

I was similar age to Keza.

I was literally 10 years old when I started a

little group at school and you know, was like going to like national demos and all sorts of

stuff from like 13, like in the anarchist federation from when I was like 11.

So it's like, of course I'm going to think that my self worth is based on my like output

of like what I'm doing for these movements and what I'm contributing to them.

And somehow I think the reason like people can get triggered by you doing like a solo project

is actually because they've got like an unmet need of like,

you know, feeling like invisibilized in a movement or something.

Like, I don't know, it's interesting stuff.

But yeah, you know, what time we open up to

questions or where it's 22, but yeah, I'm happy to keep going or yeah,

let's pull up one.

More thread and then let's go for questions.

But you get to pull the thread this time which.

What have you been dying to ask me in a public room?

Oh, that could be a little bit X rated now.

I'm joking.

Maybe that was the wrong framing for this conversation.

Oh, and put on the spot.

I think my story.

How do like,

how do like non humans like influence your work?

Because for me, like it's the herbalism that really drives everything I do.

And I have a lot of relationships with plants and the medicine is what sustains me to keep

doing the organizing.

You know, people are like, oh, how do you keep going about burning out?

And I'm like, well, plant medicines, you know, like everything is.

But I'm just interested for you, like, how do your sort of like animistic kind of

relationships with non humans, like how do they influence like what you're doing and how

you're creating?

Yeah, thanks.

I think it happens in two ways at the same time.

It is sustaining my work and I think it is my work.

So without being too meta and abstract, it's like,

yeah, I think there's a lot of things where I think of like collective care, nature

connection,

all of these imperfect terms.

But you know what I mean,

where there's one view of it that is like,

yes, we need to do these things.

We need to sleep, we need to dream, we need to

care, and we need to connect with the non humans so that we can sustain this other

thing.

And I think the other perspective, and again, it's not a binary, is like, no, that is the

thing.

Like, if we're coming to the here and now, if we're reconnecting and breaking those binaries

that we've been culturally encultured with, if we are making connections, then that is

actually, like,

that's the thing we're missing sometimes.

And the more we're doing that,

hopefully on a collective level and not just like me sitting in my garden, but the more

that we're doing that, I think that sometimes is the work, in fact, of, like,

that's the opposite of capitalism.

That's the opposite of extractive colonialism.

It's the opposite of that.

And I think it's not just to sustain the other

things.

Sometimes it is, that's fine.

Like taking a deep breath and listening to the nightingales.

I have a lot of nightingales here.

So that we can fight another day.

Okay.

But also maybe that is partly the fight.

For me,

that's sometimes I think what we're missing.

And when I can encourage people to be in the

park in Berlin and slow down and listen to the nightingales, I think it's not only to sustain

the other thing,

but that is the thing that we're missing sometimes.

And we're like, oh, ****, wow, I'm in a living world now.

I want to ******* defend it.

I think that connection is sometimes what

we're missing.

So that's in a very abstract sense.

But I spend all the time I can listening to the birds, particularly.

They've always been my friends.

I was running this little bird group when I was very, very.

And I was running workshops and writing newsletters.

And I'm still a nerd for birds, really.

Like,

I don't, like.

I don't know how good those workshops were,

but probably very cute.

And yeah, that's still.

They still call me just because they're so

easy.

I think, like, I think that, like,

yeah, I'm really experiencing it with, like, these, like, nature walks and stuff.

That it's like,

people know a few birds and they're always around, luckily, hopefully.

So that's quite an easy kind of entry point or something.

And if not, it's like, lots of people are like, teach me the birds.

I'm like, okay, there's quite a few,

but if you get to know a blackbird,

you're probably going to bump into a blackbird at some point and you can be like, spread that

love with somebody else.

It's such a weird thing but somehow it feels

really powerful to me.

And yeah, I know my plant friends are the same.

They're like once, you know a dandelion, you could be like, look at this dandelion.

Let me tell you some stories about the dandelion.

I think that idea of stories and memes meme in the original sense of like a packet of

information that you're giving to someone else.

You can be like, here's my dandelion story.

Now you have my dandelion story.

Like, please spread that so that other people are like going through the day and they're

like, oh, **** a dandelion.

Oh, that reminds me of a story I heard.

Like, I think that that really brings us into the moment.

It brings us into connection.

There's something very powerful about

something so simple.

The end.

I love that so much.

I just hosted like a three day practical

medicine making intensive.

And yeah, like it reminds me of,

of that, of like what you were saying at the beginning around like at the beginning of this

bit around it is the work, like and someone literally burst into tears in a sort of

closing go round which isn't unusual but they were like,

I've been so despairing about the world and about like, is it possible to live

differently? You know, when everything feels so dark and

awful and like traumatic.

And then she was like,

yeah, it is like we've done it this weekend.

You know, people have been kind to each other

and we've been in good relationship with the land and we've eaten food that's grown on site

and we've harvested plant medicines with our own hands that can then nourish us into the

future.

And I think, yeah, like maybe there's a tendency to take that for granted I think

because I'm so like functional of oh, I need to get these care packages in the post and oh,

we've run out of coffee for, for Calais.

Like blah, blah, blah, blah blah.

But then when I'm with someone and that's

literally the first time in their life where they've connected with a plant.

It's really nice to witness that like magical connection,

you know, because like especially having like a baby now, it's like, yeah, like most kids,

kids like that, you know, or most adults, like they can recognize like thousands of corporate

logos but can hardly name like more than 10 plants.

And that was definitely my childhood.

Like I didn't come from any sort of wholesome,

plant loving family or anything.

So it's like,

you know, I think that power of introducing someone to a plant or an animal or a bird like

that is so.

Yeah, just kind of like liberatory, you know, in its own way.

Yeah,

it really is.

I love you, Nicole.

Thanks for putting that, Fred. I loved it.

Questions from all the other people.

It's probably quite intimidating to ask us a question, to be fair,

but please ask your questions.

Or reflections or things that you're like.

That reminds me of my life or even like concrete things like how do you do XYZ or.

Yes, I want to now know the dandelion story.

What's the name? Leuvenson.

Leuvenson Dandelion.

Nicole can tell you the herbal story.

I can tell you the queer story.

Give us the queer one first.

Oh, my gosh.

I don't know why I brought up dandelions.

I've forgotten the story.

Okay.

What I remember is what we think of as being one species, Tarexicum.

Something.

Something is actually a whole multitude of

species.

So it's already like ******* with some categories.

It's one of these ones, actually.

There's a whole bunch of possibly subspecies

and populations that don't really interbreed.

So the idea of a species of dandelion is

already just a mess.

In fact, it seems like multiple species.

So it's kind of queering, troubling.

All of those very simple classifications which are not real things.

We just made them up and they switch between sexual reproduction and asexual reproduction

in different places.

So I think the dandelions in Europe mostly

reproduce sexually and then where they've colonized.

So I think in the Americas they switch to an asexual reproduction because it's much, much

faster and they can kind of spread over land much quicker than using sexual.

And then once they're kind of established, I think they switch back to sexual reproduction.

So different populations have different forms of sex.

Kind of queer,

Nicole.

Oh, I was enjoying that.

I was like,

I love it when you're a nerd.

It's like the best version.

Not the best version, but it's like.

It's the version.

I don't see that much that when it comes out, I'm like, yeah,

just go for it.

It's all right.

I've written you a whole book, Nicole.

You can.

Yeah, no, I'm really excited to read.

100,000 words of my nerdiness.

Don't worry, it's coming.

Don't let me edit in that.

So it's you know, that's your skill.

Yeah, I mean, how.

I can talk a little bit about how I work with

dandelion, like,

as a hubbless.

So I think dandelion is this, like, amazing,

like, gateway hub because most people can recognize dandelion and it grows, like,

literally everywhere.

Especially when I was in prison, it was like,

you know, popping up through the cracks in the concrete.

And I talk about it in the prisoner's herbal of.

I literally, like, slept with a dandelion root, like, under my pillow for a lot of my

sentence and would,

like, eat the fresh leaves and, like, dry the leaves and the roots on the prison radiator

and make people, like, tea and stuff with it.

And.

Yeah, when you're eating such a kind of awful, like, industrially produced processed food,

like,

you know, especially with a lot of, like, really intense types of, like, bad fats, it

just was, like, very helpful in supporting the kind of, like, liver health.

Health.

So it's got a real affinity with the liver and sort of communicating to the body to help

produce, like, enzymes and bile and different things to help us digest.

So, yeah, it has this, like, strong digestive affinity as well as, like, many, many, many

other actions.

But,

yeah, I think it's, like a fantastic plant for people that are, like, new to herbalism

because it's just, like, so generous with its, like, flavor and its medicine.

And yeah, there's so many different, like, folk names for dandelion and Different.

Yeah, like I said, different species, like, all over the shop.

So,

yeah.

I love it when you're a nerd as well.

I put the dandelion plant profile from your

website in the text comments thing.

More questions.

So I hope you can hear me.

So I just really like this notion or what you said, Cass, about maybe it's not.

I don't know if I understood you right, but for me, it was less about what the plants and

the animals tell you, but rather the stories you receive and you share with others and

therefore create a sort of connection to this by sharing it with other people.

And this brings me kind of to a question to Nicole.

Whether your work during the time spent in prison has maybe influenced other people or

even the system itself, you know, by practicing this.

This relationship and also by sharing it and by living it in this context.

Just to clarify the sort of impact of the book and the work on the prison system.

No. Like the example you just made by, for instance, making tea.

I mean, it's kind of a subversive act of rebellion, kind of against the food they

Served you in this context, for instance.

And I, I just wondered whether that influenced

also the system itself and maybe how they do it in the future or how other people spending

time there kind of deal with district,

you know.

Yeah, I think like,

well, I think it's worth saying that like prisoners throughout history have made

medicine from plants.

And I often get like lots of cute people

emailing me saying like, have you heard about this guy?

Like he pressed all these flowers in this book while he was in prison and stuff like this.

And like different people's prison diaries, they write about birds that they see regularly

and stuff like from their windows and things or their cells.

But yeah, I think, think like I've had a lot of contact with people in prison who have

like,

yeah, developed that relationship with a plant.

And I guess just like content warning here about suicidality.

Like I've had people write to me who,

you know, like, have literally been on like just the sort of edge of wanting to die in

prison.

Obviously, like suicides in prison are really

huge, like high rate, especially in the uk.

And yeah, like people have said like, oh, I was about to do this and then I saw this

plant, you know, that I recognized from your book.

And they had this like powerful connection with this herb of like, this herb is like

reminding you like,

we're alive, like we're here.

Like the prisoner trying to kill us with

Roundup and pesticides, but yet we keep coming back and we keep surviving and that like,

yeah, there is an alternative to the, the gray walls and everything else.

And I think, yeah, I've had like several people write to me who've had that experience

of like such a strong relationship with a plan.

And one of the people I interviewed for my podcast was a woman called Jackie Sumo from

this project called Solitary Gardens.

And she works with,

she's based in the like the so called us and she works with people in solitary confinement

and they communicate with her and her sort of, of community groups outside to build gardens

for the prisoners like in the.

The like the size and the shape of the cell.

So if someone is in like a 2x3 cell,

they'll make a garden the same size and they'll plant all the plants that that

prisoner wants them to plant and then send them photos and things.

And yeah, like she works with a lot of like Black Panther prisoners who've been in prison

for like 40 plus years.

And yeah, for them they've definitely,

you know, that's also like really like sustained their struggle.

And also this sort of like kind of more like Decolonizing relationship of, like, you know,

like, connecting to plants, like, of their ancestors or, you know, plants that were,

like, you know, taken away from people when they were, like, enslaved or like plants that

have come from West Africa or other locations.

So it's like, yeah, there's just like, so many layers to it.

And I love.

I love her work so much because it does, like.

Yeah, just remind me, like, when I do presentations about the prisoners herbal, I

always tell people, like, the solution is not herbalism in prison.

Like, the solution is, like, no more prisons.

Like, you know, like, I'm not advocating, like, for prison gardens and things.

Like, I'm just advocating to support people in prison to survive those sentences.

And if, like,

the difference between wanting to die and wanting to live is like, like, you know,

having some like, chamomile tea or something, then that's, like, amazing, right?

Yeah.

Check.

I have nothing to add.

Can I. Can I ask another thing?

I'm just wondering.

Well, you can both or even others respond.

But now, Nicole, as herbalist, maybe, how do you.

I don't know how to say it.

How do you make kind of interactions with

plants or how do you harvest them or with what thoughts or what awareness?

Because I feel like for you, plants are also like beings and not just something green that

comes from the ground and you can just take it and do whatever you want.

So I'm just wondering what is kind of your approach or your thoughts behind using the

plants to make medicine? Using the plants to.

Yeah, whatever you do.

Should I go cancel that first or.

Yeah, we talked about this on the medicine making course, actually, of like,

like trying to have like a kind of like, consent focus of like, I always ask a plant,

like, is it okay if I,

like, harvest you today? And like, I got people to respond with, like,

their experiences of when they felt kind of rejected by a plant.

Like, maybe that's like a really strong sensation of just like.

No. And maybe it literally is sometimes, like, getting smacked in the face with like, a bunch

of thorns or a bramble or something.

But yeah, I think, like,

it's kind of like,

you know, like, I talk about it in the prisoners herbal, this, like, plant ally

practice where it's like really connecting with a plant, like, in depth by just sitting

with them and hanging out with them.

And, like, it's amazing how I can have 15 people on a course and they can all go and do

an activity with a different plant, yet they're their.

Their response to that plant that I've not said one word about is.

And They've encountered it for the first time.

Their comments are, like, the same as the people on the groups the last three years in a

row.

Oh, when I sat next to this plant, I felt

like, this, this and this and, like, you know, like, lots of,

you know, indigenous writers and stuff, like braiding sweetgrass.

Like Robin Wall Kimmerer, she writes about.

Yeah.

Like, how there is just this kind of, like,

sort of intrinsic, relational knowing of, you know, what.

How plants are worked with, like, throughout history on different continents.

Like, even if people hadn't crossed each other, they've all been said that the plant

has told them themselves, if that makes sense.

I mean, I also have a tendency to have, like, a bit of a, like,

utilitarian, like, biomedical approach because of my training.

And, like, that's something I'm always kind of trying to, like, contend with and, like,

unlearn a bit because I'm quite sort of naturally sciency.

So. So,

yeah, maybe Cass, you can talk about that.

Of that bridge of, like,

navigating different ways of knowing, like, and being pregnant.

It was interesting because I was so unwell through my pregnancy that for the first time

in 15 years, I wasn't able to harvest any medicine.

And it made me realize, like, **** me.

Like, I'm really interacting with my garden in

this, like, hyper extractive way of, like, ooh, this plant need.

Needs to be harvested.

Oh, I need to pick the hawthorns before they go or.

Or, you know, oh, the rose is going to finish.

I need to get as much as possible before the

roses finish.

Whereas, like, the first time,

ironically, when I was pregnant, and also sort of learning to receive more and be supported

by other people and have everything come this way so that I could go this way.

It was like, teaching me, like, oh, yeah, like, they're not there for you to harvest,

you know, and they're thriving and they're fine.

And, you know,

obviously some plants, like,

really, like, all plants, all plants, but lots of plants flourish from a human relationship

of harvesting and cultivating them.

But, yeah, it was just like, an interesting

learning for me of, like.

Yeah. How.

Yeah. How much plants are just, like, really autonomous and.

Yeah, sorry, I'm like.

But maybe, Kez, you have things to say on that.

I thought it was super clear.

Yeah.

I think that as you framed it, like, different ways of knowing,

that makes sense.

I feel like there's multiple things happening

for me at the same time.

So with herbs, with birds, with whoever I'm in

relationship with,

there is that storytelling part, and there is also the direct relationship and Sometimes

they are the same and sometimes they're a bit different.

Sometimes they inform each other,

but yeah, there's usually both.

And I think that's kind of.

It's important for me to kind of reflect on it because the relationships definitely came

before the stories in a way.

Although I don't know if I think of some of

the most familiar bird species for me or orange tip butterflies as an example, I always

come back to because there are lots where I used to live.

When I was 10,

there was a story that I was given the cultural narrative of like,

everything is dead, who cares? Exploited,

extracted.

Humans are the only thing that's important.

Then I learned some stories about.

No. Then I met some orange tip butterflies and

I spent lots of time with them and I built a relationship.

Then I probably learned some stories about orange tip butterflies that were different to

that dominant narrative.

And so I think there's often these multiple

layers and it's just more like being aware of all those things happening.

And I also spent a lot of time with orange tip butterflies or starlings, for example.

So we already, like this morning, we already talked about starlings a bit.

And I've definitely known people who will be like, starlings are a great metaphor for

community organizing and emergent properties and something, something.

And there is that,

and we can learn from that.

And that's cute.

But also,

have you spent hundreds of hours with starlings?

Because they're ******* amazing.

So just spend some time with the starlings as

well and build that direct relationship.

Otherwise I think it can become extractive.

Extractive for medicine, extractive for

stories.

I think we're primed and cultured to extract.

And so it can be that unlearning that we were talking about earlier of just kind of like,

oh, what is that tendon? Where is that coming from?

What am I trying to get here?

Am I trying to.

Yeah, what am I trying to get out of this?

And I think, particularly with my work at the moment, I think I'm navigating this kind of

like objectifying the species systems, whatever the **** they are,

to learn something so that we can community organize.

And that just doesn't feel like the right motivation.

It's not the worst one,

but that has to be balanced out with direct relationship.

And I think that.

That I learn a lot from stories,

for sure.

And as I say, a story can be a little package

that you pass on and it kind of spreads and it gives people a moment.

But I think also at the same time,

teaching people to just be like,

here's a dandelion and just have a moment with a dandelion.

Taste them, touch them, love them, see where they live.

That's just as powerful and that's also something that can be spread.

I think we're really built for stories, but if we can relearn that direct sensual connection

as well,

that's probably even more powerful.

So I think let's teach people dandelion

stories, but also let's teach people to sit with a dandelion and be like, hi.

Oh my God,

I've seen so many of you and I've never spent time with.

I think that direct connection is also a really powerful thing that we can encourage.

That's interesting.

Thank you.

Okay, Basil already has to head out.

Thank you for sharing your work insights on

Basel.

Yeah, I think that we're coming to the end of our hour anyway.

Maybe one more question before Nicola has to rush off.

Laura, you made this happen.

You should get the final question.

I was thinking about your reference of Robin Wolkemer and about the question of

what does it mean to understand the relationships in reciprocity and if you have

any practice to share how you also are giving back or what then what.

What kind of an understanding of giving back and also maybe receiving.

Because you were mentioning also how you.

Or in which ways you need to unlearn maybe the.

The caregiver roles.

If you could comment on.

On this as a last question.

No problem.

Yeah, like, for me, I think,

like I talk about it a bit in the PTSD course of like reciprocity with plants, of like, if

they're really taking care of us, like humans and obviously plants take care of all the non

humans too, and each other, you know, sending each other chemical messengers all around

their root systems and with mushrooms and all sorts of stuff.

Like, I think the least we can do is kind of like show up for the habitats, you know, like

in maybe that's like struggles, like kind of eco defense struggles of like defending land

that is like threatened by capitalism, by new developments, by mining, like all of these

things,

you know, or whatever people are doing, like even trying to, you know, resist kind of

climate change is kind of a way of, you know, working for our ecosystems.

So yeah, like, I think for me that's why I love supporting people like, involved in those

sorts of struggles.

Because like,

yeah, that's kind of one way to give back to plants.

And then I also just think kind of like,

yeah, like sort of direct,

like habitat creation and like it fills me with joy to think that lots of people have

read My book and then started a herb garden or started, you know, even just, like, in prison,

just like, letting the dandelions survive.

Right.

Not like weeding,

reading everything, but just kind of, you know.

So sometimes I feel like,

am I just some weird vehicle for dandelions to just,

you know, propagate all over the place? Because, like, people will hopefully, like,

fall in love with them after reading book and having that direct relationship.

So, yeah, I think that kind of solidarity is important and just sort of like,

it's really hard in capitalism to be, like, any sort of, like, ethical or whatever.

And, like, we make compromises all the time.

You know, like, we buy little plastic bottles

for Calais because we can't dispense medicine and glass bottles with broken glass, like in

the refugee camp.

So it's like, you're always making these compromises.

But as far as I possibly can, like, if I'm not harvesting or growing a plant medicine myself,

I will always try to work with, like, an organic supplier or someone growing that

plant, like, locally with integrity as much as I can.

And, you know, like, avoiding using endangered species and things like that.

This.

And then.

Yeah, my brain's gone of the second part.

Oh, yeah, Receiving.

So I actually wrote a thing on.

On the old Instagram about,

like, herbalism as an act of rebellion against self neglect where, like, if you sort of.

Yeah.

Grow up in, like, sort of context that me and

Kez grew up where, you know, your needs are very repressed to care for other people then.

And I felt like the way I learned to care for myself was through herbalism, through herbs

teaching me like, oh, I've got a little bit of a cold coming on.

Oh, I'm going to work with, you know, ginger or make a thyme tea or something.

And it's like,

it was this, like, passion for herbalism that taught me about my body and taught me to

listen to my body and my body's needs.

And I don't think it was the other way around.

Like, a lot of people get into herbalism

because of experiences with chronic illness and, you know, getting nowhere with, you know,

lots of, like, you know, allopathic medicine.

So, like, whereas I feel like it was herbalism, herbs, for me, that taught me to

slow down.

That taught me,

okay, you don't have to do, like, 5 billion emails today.

You can go out and literally walk three miles of hedgerow harvesting hawthorne flowers or

elderflower.

And that has then taken care of my nervous

system.

So I think herbs and plant medicines have just been integral to kind of.

Yeah.

Learning how to receive like that direct

medicine, but also that like act of herbalism.

Yeah, I. I will put that bit of writing on a blog sometime.

Don't know when, but it will.

It will happen.

Thank you so much for sharing.

I bet.

I'm so sorry, but I better go back to the

baby.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

For having me.

I.

The invitation and anyone's welcome to email me anytime.

And I'll reply when I can because I don't get on the computer very often right now.

But yeah.

Thank you so much, Kez.

I love you.

You've been amazing.

I'm so jealous of.

You have no idea what.

How lucky you are to have a whole day of Kez teaching you.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Definitely.

It's a bit tiring but like I live with her.

It's not that great.

I have to.

Could be a bit much.

It's been amazing.

Thanks so much, Nicole.

Take care.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for being with us.

Bye. Bye.

Yeah.

So do you feel like answering as well or should we leave the.

Yeah, I can briefly.

It reminded me that I often think of.

Of bird medicine, which is not a really commonly articulated thing, but I feel like

it's not so medicinal,

like listening to the birds and watching the birds.

It's not medicinal in the same way that Leuven sound can help your liver or something.

But I feel like there is.

When Nicole was saying like some of the prisoners that she'd received letters from

were like, oh, I found the Leuvens horn and it really helped me.

And I was also watching the birds and that helped me.

I think there is a bird medicine.

It's not just birds.

I'm just obsessed with them.

But I think it's something I haven't really articulated, but I think it's something I'm

learning too,

of just how they bring me so much into the present moment, into my senses, into my

perceptions.

That in itself is like an actively therapeutic act or something.

But also again, not only in terms of what it does for me, but in terms of learning to

listen and find out what's going on.

In terms of reciprocity.

Like they've been coming here to the bird

feeder this entire time.

So that's a thing I do.

I feed them all the time.

I have so many spatzen.

Like I don't think it's probably like the best ecological balance, but their populations are

struggling, so I don't mind them being happy little spatzen.

And yeah, indeed, ecological defense.

That's part of it.

That's part of reciprocity when I'm supporting people, defending our ecosystems, that's part

of what I can give back.

And just I think also giving them my presence.

Not that I'm like amazing and what a gift, but I think the fact of me listening to them very

closely and being in relationship with them means that I'm looking out for them, I'm

taking care of their habitats.

I'm not disturbing them in the same way that if I just didn't care and I ignored them and I

was just like crashing through the forest.

I think that all those things that are very

hard to measure maybe are also part of that relationship.

That's my answer.

Thank you so much.

I'm curious when we will be able to read your

book.

Well, some students did this morning.

They already.

Yeah, I know the first to have.

Read anything from this book.

Some of it, I'm putting it up in the text box.

There's pink green,

which is my substack.

So I'm already like posting small self

contained modules or stories or whatever.

And those are also audio mostly.

So that's a way that I'm pre releasing it because a book is a big project.

I don't have a publisher yet, but I do have the first draft and it's in editing for my

friends.

So yeah,

hard to know exactly how long it takes, but it's written and it's already pretty cute.

And it's also like,

I mean, I have to show you Nicole's book.

Like these other ones are like normal little book sizes, but this is like a monster.

So it's probably going to be about as big as that because clearly I have a lot of words and

a lot of ideas and I can't stop talking.

So big book coming soon.

Not sure we send some good energies into this direction soon.

Probably published.

I appreciate that I heard one voice in the back in the from somewhere, but I was not sure

if this is a question or comment.

Yeah, I just want to ask if you're singing with the birds.

Of course,

all the time.

Beautiful. Yeah, I used to do it a lot when I was little.

I really like the kind of vocality of like mimicking or.

When I was little I was a bit naughty and I would make a cuckoo sound so that the cuckoo

would get ****** off and come very close and be territorial just because I wanted to see

him.

So not always with good intentions, but I think particularly I do it a lot when I'm

teaching my friends the birds because that's part of the identification package is like

they sound like this and then teaching people to kind of identify because it's so

interesting in the way that people have what they call green blindness.

It's an ableist term, but there's that sense of there's just green and that's all I see.

And I just can't separate it.

I think people often have audio.

I don't have a good term for it, but the same with birds.

They'll just be like, there's just birds.

I can tell that they are birds and not

flowers, but I don't know anything else.

And so teaching people to kind of pull them apart a little bit, it takes such

concentration.

It takes such a, like being in your body to do it.

And then you start to build a relationship and you build your own like, experiences and

stories.

You're like, oh my God, it's an amsor.

That reminds me of this other time with an amsor.

And also look at this beautiful amsor right here and listen to the story.

I think it is part of building that relationship is identification sometimes as

well.

Thank you.

Laura.

What is happening for the rest of the day?

I have material for the next month,

for the rest of the month.

And we can just stay here and we can like keep

going.

But I think some of you have to go at 3:30 and

I'm just wondering how far we're going to get with the afternoon material.

How about if we would do a little break of 10 minutes and then meet again for

the people who can and then do like a little reflection or check out together how it

resonated or how it should continue.

That sounds great.

Yeah.

Yeah. Either way, definitely a break is a good idea.

And then whoever can come can come.

If you don't come back, like,

thanks for being here.

I had a really nice time with you all.

Yeah, I'll say more later, but if you're leaving now and you've only been here just for

this session or the morning,

I just really appreciate this.

I had a really nice time.

I wish we were going until 6,

which was not time that I invented.

It was not the real time.

I just made it up.

I was like, yeah, let's do a seven hour zoom

day.

You probably didn't want that,

but yeah, no, I just had a really, really nice time.

And I love these subjects.

As I said,

particularly for the morning.

This is the first time I've done this.

This is material that I just kind of created a

few months ago.

It's super fresh, it's super new and super

vulnerable as well.

To be like,

does this make any sense.

Is this useful?

I mean, I hope so.

You can tell Generous that you share it with us.

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm curious to know how it.

How it landed, how you've been experiencing it.

Let's take a break.

Come back in 10 minutes.

Yes.

Enjoy your breaks.

Thank you.

See you in a bit.

And bye.

Bye.

Thanks so much for listening to the Frontline Herbalism podcast.

You can find the transcript, the links, all the resources from the show@solidarity

apothecary.org podcast.