131 – Stimulating Nervines: Herbs for Depression and Shutdown

Welcome to the Frontline Herbalism Podcast with your host, Nicole Rose from the

Solidarity Apothecary.

This is your place for all things plants and

liberation.

Let's get started.

Hello, welcome back to the Frontline Herbalism Podcast.

I am going to be talking about stimulating nervines today.

So these are nervines which are herbs with an affinity for the nervous system, but these

ones have a more sort of gentle stimulant action and I'm going to go into what that

means in all the depth in a minute.

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All right, let's dive in to the stimulating nervines.

All right, so let's dive in.

So stimulating herbs.

So these are herbs with an affinity for the nervous system with a gentle stimulant action.

And as ever, I'm going to give a few disclaimers and some nuances around this

stuff.

So there is a big difference between a sort of

stimulant nervine and a hardcore stimulant, or not even a hardcore stimulant, but like, I

guess our kind of cultural stimulants.

I'm not going to diss coffee because I ******* love coffee and coffee is absolutely rammed to

the rafters with antioxidants.

But, you know, it's all the stuff that often comes with like the sugary **** and the, you

know, the cream and all this ****.

So.

And you Know like everyone is constitutionally different and more sensitive to stimulants and

maybe not aware of the effects of stimulation on things like anxiety.

And often including myself, have like a bit of addictive relationship to certain stimulants,

especially things like coffee or, or black tea for example.

But yeah, there is obviously a difference between having a cup of rosemary tea and

having like a ******* energy drink that is like loaded with like, often like loads of

like hardcore herbs.

Like people don't realize like how herbal these drinks are, but also often containing a

lot of sugar and other kind of chemicals which aren't always great for the body, especially

for the cardiovascular system.

But yeah, I, I do think there is a time and place for stimulating drinks.

And as someone who is two years postpartum now, who,

you know, my little one is ******* amazing on the sleep front, but will still have like

wakings, especially when teething.

So this week's been really, really hard.

Yeah, of course I need a ******* coffee in the morning.

So I'm not, I'm not dissing the stimulants, but I guess I just wanted to like preface that

I' talking about a different sort of stimulation.

And I guess that links to just this like bigger pattern within capitalism where we're

kind of culturally in this intense kind of like hyperarousal exhaustion cycle.

So people are exhausted because they have to work **** ******* jobs and travel far for them

and not get enough sleep and they can't afford high quality food and they don't get enough

rest and all of these other structural factors.

But basically people are becoming very dependent on stimulants for like a false

energy.

And when I work with clients,

it's all about how can we like increase our energy like naturally in kind of like

different ways.

Start off at 10, getting more ******* sleep.

So working with sleep herbs, working with nutrition and daytime nervous system support

so that we have like deeper quality sleep.

You know, looking at our nutrition, looking at

our kind of like mitochondrial, mitochondrial health, like in the cells that really affect

like energy in our bodies and you know,

just kind of like reducing this like fight or flight activation, et cetera, et cetera.

So there are different ways to build our energy in our bodies.

And I think one of the most rebellious things we can do is kind of push back against this

hyper arousal like exhaustion cycle where, you know, we just don't have any energy.

So then we're dependent on stim and then that leads to more depletion because a lot of these

stimulants are putting a lot of Pressure on our systems, on our kind of adrenal glands, on

this kind of stress response in the body.

So yeah, that's what I think we need to kind of like really challenge.

But in a kind of trauma context,

obviously a lot of people,

like depending on where they are in this kind of cortisol picture and you know, chronic

stress and trauma is way more than one ******* stress hormone.

Like that stress hormone is connected to all sorts of things.

But like,

often there is this kind of like adrenaline, adrenaline, adrenaline, like high cortisol

state where,

you know, we're just like body is like flooded in this like fight flight response.

And then that commonly leads to quite an extreme state of exhaustion.

And sometimes that exhaustion is like a real like shutdown state, which I'm going to talk

about in a minute.

And other times it's a more kind of like

frozen fatigue state where there is not a lot of like physical energy.

You know, someone might have chronic fatigue or really struggle with like kind of physical

activity and would give the appearance of needing stimulation.

But actually their nervous system is on like absolute ******* overdrive and that is what's

actually a major driver of their exhaustion.

So people who have grown up in states of

really intense chronic stress and trauma often then hit this kind of like physical plateau

where they develop, you know,

autoimmune challenges or like chronic fatigue or me things like this.

But their nervous systems are still not in a kind of state of like parasympathetic rest or

digest.

Like, it's more like they're still.

Yeah, highly, highly activated, highly triggered.

But it's just kind of like masked by exhaustion.

So.

Yeah, again, so stimulants might not be appropriate for someone.

So you know, like,

people talk about herbs like ashwagandha or rhodiola or the different ginsengs.

And these herbs traditionally have really been indicated for people in very debilitating

states of chronic illness and fatigue.

I don't feel like that picture always matches this kind of like capitalism version of it in

the sense of like that fatigue coming from really ******* overwhelmed, like stress

response over decades.

So yeah, it's just.

I don't know, why is everything so *******

complicated with herbal medicine?

Um,

but yeah, if someone is experiencing fatigue but has,

for example,

a fast heart rate or, you know, a lot of like anxiety, a lot of like intense kind of like,

like, I don't want to say like emotionality, but like a kind of like exaggerated start or

response, for example, then we know that their system is still actually in a state of like

hyperarousal and therefore stimulants might not be ideal.

And that's quite different to a sort of shutdown state.

And I don't know if you've listened to the series that I did called Soothing Survival

where I talked about different nervous system states in like much more detail.

I've also got like a kind of email series about it if you're like more into the old

written word.

So I'll put a link in the show notes to that episode about the shutdown state because I

talk about it in much more detail.

But the shutdown state is actually, actually when we're not in fight or flight, but we're

actually still having like a full on trauma response.

But it's our parasympathetic, our rest and digest state that's actually activated.

But it's kind of like almost too activated and gets stuck in the sense of like kind of like

playing dead.

Like that's what we would see in the animal

kingdom for example.

So when someone is in this state where they're kind of like dominant state is a

parasympathetic one, but not a kind of like nourishing joyful rest and play kind of state,

but a kind of like, yeah, like shut down state.

People might feel like very ******* empty or helpless.

There's like a numbness.

So there isn't that activation there.

It's just kind of hollow and people will feel kind of like drained.

And when someone is in that state,

the world still feels very overwhelming as it would if you were like very activated.

But actually it shifts to more of a, like everything is pointless and uninteresting

which I think is like very different.

It's kind of like the difference between a

stuck tension and a like a limpness.

So yeah, so in these states there's more of a kind of like heaviness and like a dissociation

and a kind of brain fog and like a mental, a mental heaviness and like you know, like a

desire to be like a hermit.

So for example, just I don't want to like bring up Taylor's death all the time like my

friend who killed himself in prison.

But like after several months of really

extreme levels of activation, like really intense levels of fight or flight of like pure

rage,

I then hit this like shutdown state which is much more intimidating I think in terms of

like didn't want to ******* get out of bed, didn't want to shower, didn't want to *******

eat, couldn't even be bothered to cry.

Like nothing even got me angry anymore.

You know, it was just like a kind of

hollowness.

And yeah, it's a very.

It's a very challenging state.

And I think,

you know, like, my mum, bless her, had quite intense mental health issues when I was

little, which actually I just think were due to ******* patriarchy and capitalism of like,

trying to.

To bring up her children on ******* nothing with like, no support.

But, like, I remember her having a nervous breakdown when I was 11.

And she just would lie in her bed, like, lie in her bedroom in the dark, Wouldn't get up,

wouldn't get up when we needed to go to school, like, things like this.

And it's like, now I've got that like, kind of trauma training.

I can see, like she was really in this, like shutdown state where it's just,

you know, you feel like completely helpless.

And I guess that's like an extreme example.

But there are kind of like more like minor examples of that where it might be just like a

passing moment in the day where you feel really hopeless and fatigued and you don't

want to ******* get out of bed,

for example, after, you know, you've had like a super stressful weekend or something.

And, you know, like, with all of these states, this is what I talk about in soothing

survival.

Like,

all of these states are like evolutionary adaptations to,

like, protect us and to conserve our energy.

So if someone has gone through like months or years of like, relentless stress, then this is

actually the nervous system protecting itself from more stress and more danger.

Does that make sense?

By not wanting to interact with the world.

And so when we're in that kind of state,

like, there are a couple of things that can shift it.

Sometimes an extreme fight or flight situation can lift someone out of this.

So that's what happened with me with Taylor was like, you know, just.

I can't remember what happened.

I think it was something to do with another

friend in prison, but it just suddenly forced me into fight or flight.

And then I kind of like, was back in this kind of like activated movement, like, zone.

But generally this state,

you can't force it.

Like, you, like,

the answer is like, gentleness.

So, like,

it's about like, gentle activity to help, like, kind of unfreeze, if that makes sense.

So,

you know, maybe like,

it's a case of like, right, I'm just gonna have a shower and that's like my one goal for

the day, and I don't have the energy for it, but, like, I'm just gonna that.

And it's that just like gentle movement that then Makes you feel like you could do

something else possibly.

But yeah, so I feel like I'm just going on side rounds again.

But basically what we're seeing is a like depression of kind of function.

Right.

Like a brain frog.

A brain frog, wow.

Imagine anyway a brain fog.

Dissociation,

low blood pressure,

you know, often a lower heart rate, decreased metabolism and just this like loss of hope and

bringing a kind of gentle stimulation in can.

Yeah, I guess just kind of like activate someone to kind of shift from that in a kind

of like gentle, loving nudge way.

So the stimulating nerve ends that I talk about in the PTSD course that I profile like

in depth are rosemary, hyssop, sage and thyme.

And you might be noticing if you're into herbalism, that they're quite similar in terms

of like herbal actions.

So they're all sort of like circulatory

stimulants.

So they do help like move blood flow in

general, but they really have like an affinity with the head.

So they move blood to the brain and that makes them often like traditionally indicated for

things like headaches and migraines and also like aiding concentration and memory.

But yeah, I think this kind of like circulation to the head thing is quite

critical.

They also have like neuroprotective antioxidants.

So you know, they've got the plant chemicals in them that are kind of like supporting our

system that's like under functioning and is quite struggling.

And I think a lot of the time when people are in a more shutdown state, there's often like a

kind of low grade like immune activation response that's like happening if that makes

sense.

And I think that's.

This is my.

Again, I'm always throwing out my like sneaky hypotheses, but I think there's something

going on there with these herbs and the kind of like.

Yeah, the antioxidants they contain and that having this kind of like anti inflammatory

response in someone and then that inflammation decreasing to just lift someone's energy a

little bit.

Because you know, like when someone's got

chronic illness, if you can just like help decrease inflammation by 5%, they've got a 5%

energy gain.

And that can be the difference between I've got the energy to go wash my face or I don't.

Does that make sense? So this is my theory in terms of these herbs

and their sort of like affinities with this state.

They're often like,

it's not a contradiction, but they're often like antispasmodics as well.

You know, especially for the respiratory system.

So they also like relax tension.

And even though like shut down itself is quite

a limp state,

when someone's more in a kind of like freeze, like they're anxious and overwhelmed, so they

just become kind of frozen and stuck.

These antispasmodic herbs can like help shift

that tension, in my experience.

But another,

another theory I'm throwing out there.

All of these herbs are,

have kind of like strong antimicrobial actions.

And hell, like, I just really think like, what are we, like, maybe all our nervous system

respons are just a response to our gut flora.

Do you know what I mean?

So maybe it's their antimicrobial action that is actually affecting our nervous system.

Like, who ******* knows?

This is where research is going.

But yeah, I think this kind of like impact on

the microbiome could be like a big factor.

And they're also like warming and kind of drying.

And I think when people are, when people are like in a kind of shut down state, like

energetically that is often quite cold and often quite damp and stagnant.

Especially like with a lot of like chronic fatigue, like in the sense of like someone

with me that has like a strong inflammatory picture where there's like a lot of like

lymphatic congestion, for example, like sore throat, like swollen lymph nodes in the groin.

There's often this like damp stagnation tissue state that is often really contributing to the

fatigue.

So working with stimulating nerve ions which

have this kind of like warming, moving, drying action I think is really helpful.

But yeah, so they kind of like,

you know, help us just give that like little,

little kick up the butt.

Does that make sense in terms of their like

warming, stimulating effects?

Does that make sense? I'm going to talk about a couple of them in a

little bit more detail now.

Hello.

All right, so I'm gonna super briefly chat about rosemary.

Fortunately, the baby is on his way home.

Well, not unfortunately.

I can't wait to see him.

It's been a nursery all morning, but my mum's

picking them up, so.

Okay, so let's dive in.

So yeah, similar to what I've described, Rosemary has a bunch of amazing herbal

actions.

So this kind of like circulatory stimulant action,

moving blood to brain and yeah, like traditionally like there's been this kind of

like energetic connection with grief.

So like rosemary for remembrance.

And again, I have all sorts of theories around that, but I think Rosemary,

yeah, for me, like, it's just too strong.

Like I can have rosemary in like cooking, for

example, but it's so warming and drying and I'm such a warm constitution person that I

just can't really work with like a tincture, for example, because also like, rosemary is

like very strong,

like antimicrobial.

So for me and my body, I wouldn't be taking

like a rosemary tincture long term at all.

Like, maybe if I had a certain cold, I might

have like rosemary tea if that's all I could find.

But for other people,

they can have rosemary tea every day and it's part of like anchoring into their routine and

they love it and it's not stimulating at all and it's actually very calming.

And I think it's worth highlighting that these stimulating nerve vines, like,

they're not like stimulants if, you know, they're not like having a massive cup of

******* coffee.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, it's a much more subtle, like gentle action.

And rosemary also has this like affinity with the liver that can help aid digestion.

And when someone is in like a shutdown state,

they often have like, I mentioned this like depression of function.

And often things just aren't, you know, the cylinders aren't firing right.

Like they might not be producing the digestive enzymes they need to help process food or they

might have low stomach acid, for example.

So like, you know, or maybe there's a lot of like gut dysbiosis going on that is causing a

lot of fatigue.

So rosemary is like really fantastic in those

kind of,

you know, in that affinity with the gut and in that affinity especially with kind of like gut

infections and also like liver related things.

Yeah, and it's, yeah, quite kind of like astringent,

which is quite kind of toning.

Which again is probably why I don't get on

with it very well because I'm a very tight, tone tense person.

But yeah, for someone, when there is that kind of like laxity, you know, like looser stools

or like diarrhea, then they've, you know, rosemary's full of these amazing astringent

tannins that can really, really help.

And you know, we often work with rosemary with like respiratory infections because of its

amazing, like decongestant effect on the chest and like amazing kind of antispasmodic action.

And again, all these amazing volatile oils and antimicrobial things going on.

So, yeah, so there's lots of ways to work with rosemary.

It's generally suggested to not work with rosemary when you're pregos.

But yeah, there is Like a kind of long aromatherapy use with rosemary.

Rosemary.

But yeah, I think the tea is, like, wonderful.

And I think, like, tea tasting with rosemary

is really nice if you're doing sort of like spiritual, emotional, energetic work,

especially around grief or the vinegar.

Like, I hate vinegar, right? Like, I really don't like vinegar.

But a nice rosemary vinegar for someone to add to their food who doesn't have a yeast

intolerance ideal.

And also the infused oil.

Oh, my God.

Dreamy in things like chest rubs.

So,

yeah, I'm gonna stop talking because there's so much about rosemary in the PTSD course I

think I've mentioned.

But, like, in each plant profile, I do dive

into some kind of research that I found in terms of, like, clinical trials and things.

So in the rosemary section, there are some, like, interesting studies where rosemary has

been supportive for people who are actually coming off methadone,

which is interesting.

And also people experiencing depression or

like memory issues or challenges or different mood states.

So, yeah, when you join the course, I put in all the original papers in a, like, resource

drive, like folders.

But I also, like, quote the research in the plant profile.

So,

yeah, shameless plug.

Please join the course if you're interested in

that.

Geekery.

Right? I'm gonna record one more and then I think my

little one is gonna arrive.

Hello.

Okay, so time.

I mean, who doesn't know time?

What a dreamy herb.

Really accessible.

You can grow it in your garden, you can grow

it on your balcony.

Loads of, like, cultural relationships with this plant, especially in terms of, you know,

like culinary herbalism and, you know, integrating time with your food.

So I love a thyme glycerite.

Oh, it's so good.

I don't like making it because the volatile oils are really strong.

You need to have the windows open for that, man.

But having a time glycerite in the immune tonic that I make with the sold out apothecary

and the one we make for Calais, it's like, it's so great.

Like, I really.

There's not many other herbs that I would want to reach to quite as quickly for upper

respiratory infection than time has an incredible relaxant action on this sort of

bronchial tubes and is helpful for people with asthma.

Again, probably because of like the ******* microbiome angle.

But yeah, it's very warming and drying, so it's really fantastic.

Where there is this kind of like dampness and wetness and like I've mentioned before, like

in a kind of shutdown,

depressed kind of state, there is often this Dampness and wetness and like rosemary.

It has a real like affinity with the liver.

Also a lot of like astringent kind of tannins.

Also just amazing antimicrobial against gut infections.

What if all depression is just a response to ******* cheeky gut bacteria taking over, do

you know what I mean? Or a response to ******* hardness of life and

trauma, but you know what I mean?

So yeah, so I feel like time is kind of like having its effect through lots of different

mechanisms.

Okay. And yeah, like there's all this stuff around UTIs and thrush again, microbiome

stuff.

And you know, you can also add thyme infused oils or the essential oil to things like

bruise ointments for example.

It's really fantastic for, for pain relief.

So yeah, there's so many things you can do with thyme, but obviously careful with like

infants.

I mean be careful with essential oils.

Anyway,

I'm not friends.

No, I'm just joking.

There's just like such different.

Whenever I used to work with this French

doctor in Calais, like they're so free and easy with essential oils.

Like the British, like UK herbalists are all just like having panic attacks about the

amount of essential oils people are recommending.

But anyway,

I think time has just this like amazing affinity with people that are, yeah, just like

struggling like and I think like a lot of people that have this kind of like shutdown,

chronic fatigue, me picture with a lot of inflammation.

Like everyone manifests that in different ways.

Like maybe that's like musculoskeletal challenges but like a lot of people have it

like with this like respiratory fault line.

Like they have shortness of breath, they have

chronic chest infections, they have you know, like shortness of breath challenges just

through like day to day movement.

Maybe they've got like a history of asthma and again history of asthma, microbiome, time,

it's all connected.

But yeah, like, I think that time is just like a wonderful kind of gentle, stimulating nerve

vine.

And like the thing is with plants, right, they

get like lumped into their categories like, oh, this is a respiratory herb, this is an

immune herb, this is for migraines.

But like when we think like comprehensively with that whole energetic picture, we can see

that there is like always a lot going on.

And if someone is in this kind of like depressed, damp state, then working with time

as a nervine can be like really powerful because it can provide that kind of like

gentle stimulation, you know, in the sense of like if someone's got really immense brain fog

that is so ******* exhausting for them to just function like daily tasks.

Like, maybe you just have a cup of thyme tea to help you concentrate on doing your PIP

application or doing some life admin or doing some organizing.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, I think we can sort of like skillfully pick and choose the herbs that we work with

and when we work with them.

So, yeah, so anyway, but the little one is coming down the drive, so I'm going to stop

talking.

Thank you for listening.

The ******* herbalism, PTSD and traumatic stress course is open until Sunday.

Don't know why I'm so hyper.

Oh, it's because I had a big coffee in a posh

coffee shop this morning, hence the stimulation.

But yeah, I just want to say, please join the course.

It will break my heart if you email me when I've shut the whole thing down and you're

like, I missed it.

So please, please, please sign up.

Like, sorry about that beeping.

I'm trying to make lunch for the little one at the same time.

Yeah, no one has turned away Flaka Funds.

Obviously.

All the donations are amazing and they're life changing and support all the **** I do with

the Soledad Apothecary.

But yeah, you are welcome to access it if you

need it.

And I strongly encourage people to bounce around.

I mean, like, obviously I think it's important to go through like the herbal safety stuff,

but if you have listened to this podcast and you're like, oh, I really want to learn about

these nerve ends more, then you can just like,

you know,

watch those lessons, for example, like, it's lifetime access, so you have enough time to

bounce about and go where you need to go and where your needs are.

So, yeah, I hope this has been interesting and helpful.

I will be back soon.

Okay, take care.

Thanks so much for listening to the Frontline Herbalism Podcast.

You can find the transcript, the links, all the resources from the

show@solidarityapothecary.org podcast.