This episode is an interview with Rob (he/him) about trauma and addiction. We explore what is active addiction, how it relates to trauma, how addiction affects people, families and communities, and so much more. We talk about how people in active addiction are dehumanised and criminalised, support structures for recovery and everything in between!
Links & resources from this episode
Find them all at solidarityapothecary.org/podcast/
Music from Sole & DJ Pain – Battle of Humans | Plant illustrations by @amani_writes | In solidarity, please subscribe, rate & review this podcast wherever you listen.
Transcript
Welcome to the Frontline Herbalism podcast with your host Nicole Rose from the Solidarity Apothecary.
Nicole:This is your place for all things plants and liberation.
Nicole:Let's get started.
Nicole:Welcome back to the Frontline Herbalism podcast.
Nicole:This is the first interview in the series all about the kind of politics of trauma and exploring trauma like in more depth.
Nicole:I'm really happy to introduce you to Rob.
Nicole:So he's actually my partner.
Nicole:We, yeah, maybe you've seen us.
Nicole:So, you know, like little cute selfies on Instagram and stuff.
Nicole:We met like several years ago, actually when he, , had been out of rehab for a year or so.
Nicole:And, , at that stage in his recovery, he just wasn't kind of ready for a relationship.
Nicole:So, I kind of was a bit heartbroken.
Nicole:And then, you know, skip forward, he, you know, got back in touch with me this year.
Nicole:And we've reconnected and I'm very much in love.
Nicole:He's a really amazing human who's...
Nicole:been to hell and back but is, yeah, incredibly caring and, like, loving and compassionate and, yeah, has used all of his experiences to kind of support other people.
Nicole:So I hope you learn a lot from the interview.
Nicole:We talk just kind of like a content warning, I guess.
Nicole:Like we do talk about things like people dying and overdoses and kind of medical neglect and you know, people being dehumanized and stuff like through their experiences of addiction.
Nicole:We answer kind of questions around like common myths about things like enabling people.
Nicole:We talk about the impact on families, , he gives advice about kind of recovery and programs he's like been involved in and that have helped him.
Nicole:And I just kind of think like wherever you are.
Nicole:like, on that spectrum, whether you're someone who's been, you know, really traumatized yourself by, you know, having a parent who is in active addiction, for example, or whether you're someone who's been through that yourself, like, I do think you will find it really interesting, , and hopefully moving.
Nicole:Obviously, like, we just scratched the surface on a bunch of things, but I think it's, yeah, I think he's done an amazing job and, yeah, I hope you enjoy.
Nicole:And yeah, just a shameless plug, my, , herbalism, PTSD and traumatic stress course is available very soon.
Nicole:It's coming out on Friday, so please join the waiting list if you want a 10 percent discount.
Nicole:Otherwise, you will hear me talk about it a lot over the next couple of weeks, , before I kind of close enrolment again, so.
Nicole:Just wanted to plug that, like we explore a lot of things about how trauma and these different life experiences shape our body, shape our health and yeah, the role that plant medicines can play in supporting us.
Nicole:So I hope this episode brings you something, would really love to hear your feedback.
Nicole:Feel free to DM me on Instagram or email me.
Nicole:Like I know Rob would love to hear what people think.
Nicole:, it's obviously like very scary, like talking about this stuff publicly and things.
Nicole:So yeah, anything you'd like to share about its impact would be amazing.
Nicole:Okay.
Nicole:Take care.
Nicole:Hello.
Nicole:Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Nicole:Please.
Nicole:Can you introduce yourself, your pronouns and anything else you'd like to share?
Nicole:Hello, yeah, thanks for having me on.
Nicole:My name is Rob and my pronouns are he and him.
Nicole:Amazing, thanks for coming.
Nicole:And yeah, like, thanks so much for offering to share more about your story and about, like, trauma and addiction in general.
Nicole:I'm sure, like, loads of people listening will have been affected by addiction in different ways.
Nicole:So yeah, if you'd like to just start by introducing a bit more about yourself and your experience with addiction.
Nicole:That would be amazing.
Rob:I guess, , the actual nature of my drug use is...
Rob:a similar story to, you know, those that will be listening or, you know, , family members of, , those that are listening.
Rob:And it is essentially the progression of, I picked up drugs when I was quite young, , specific ages aren't really important, I believe.
Rob:And, you know, started off with smoking a bit of cannabis and, you know, party drugs and stuff.
Rob:And that quickly progressed into, , full blown active addiction with, again, with harder drugs.
Rob:, I don't really believe with the nature of addiction that the specific drugs are important when we're trying to get a message of kind of, you know, trauma and addiction out there, but mine were.
Rob:By the end, you know, the last six years or so of my using my, my drugs of choice were heroin and crack cocaine.
Rob:But as I say, it didn't start off that way.
Rob:It was a progression over the course of a few years.
Rob:And yeah, it kind of, it stole my, , the majority of my life away from me.
Rob:I started as a, as a child, and I have now been out of rehab and clean for about six years.
Rob:, but that didn't happen until I was...
Rob:in my late twenties, you know, so I lost kind of almost two decades of my life to active addiction.
Rob:, and, you know, not only did it kind of affect and, , ruin my life, but, you know, as, as we'll kind of talk through, , in regards to trauma, , Those that are closest to me, , or were closest to me, , were affected also.
Rob:, you know, they, they were traumatized just as much as, as I am, I think.
Nicole:So this, like, podcast series is all about trauma, and, you know, it's largely what my work with the Solidarity Apothecary focuses on.
Nicole:Especially, you know, with my upcoming Herbalism, PTSD, and Traumatic Stress course, which, like, really dives into...
Nicole:You know, how trauma affects the body and like the politics of trauma and all of that stuff.
Nicole:, and I'm just curious to know, like, how do you think addiction relates to trauma?
Nicole:Like, how is it traumatizing in itself?
Nicole:Like, are people on active addiction more likely to be traumatized in different ways?
Nicole:And yeah, like, does addiction stem from trauma, for example?
Nicole:Sorry, I know that's like a million and one questions, but yeah, I'm just curious, like, what your views are.
Nicole:I mean, I think,
Nicole:, Rob: For me personally, and you know, and, and having been in, , you know, the recovery circles now for a while as well and listening to other people's stories, I think there's kind of two main sides to it.
Nicole:And, , you know, I, I think the actual, , using of the drugs itself, especially when you get into the harder drugs, I think, , you know, just the process of that can be traumatizing enough, you know, like every single day.
Nicole:, You know, for me, anyway, I was kind of rolling the dice, and...
Nicole:You know, , I was well aware that kind of that day or that use up or that time, you know, that one time I, , you know, stick a needle in my arm could have, like, very well could have been the last time, you know, , because, you know, the drugs I was taking and the ways that I was taking them is, you know, it's dangerous, you know, so I think ultimately that realization when you know you're that far into active addiction and, and yeah.
Nicole:you know, you're, you're fully aware of the harm you're doing to yourself.
Nicole:, and, and well, and to others also.
Nicole:, I think that's kind of, you know, because no, no one says, you know, when they get to that point of, you know, , on a daily basis, you know, having to use, , you know, heroin and crack cocaine, those really dangerous drugs.
Nicole:No one ever sits there and says, you know, I wasn't aware of, you know, how dangerous it is.
Nicole:I wasn't aware that that could kill me, you know?
Nicole:So it's always running through your mind, no matter how, how much you use, you know?
Nicole:, so just that process, you know, every single day, , you know, I'd find myself having to You know, like break multiple laws just to, , you know, just to, to actually be able to get myself that next fix and, and score, you know, what became medicine to me, you know, so all day, you know, I'm kind of aware of.
Nicole:My actions and what the consequences can be.
Nicole:, which yeah in itself that's traumatizing i'd go to bed anxious I'd wake up, you know anxious and i'd spend my days full of anxiety apart from you know those small Kind of, you know, sections of the day where I'm high enough to, to try and block it all out, you know, , And, and, and that's just the using and, you know, the scoring of, of drugs itself.
Nicole:, you know, even just kind of finding money to, to be able to afford them, you know, that doesn't go without trauma.
Nicole:I've kind of put myself in situations, , You know, working for or, or, , you know, helping out people that, you know, aren't the nicest of people that, you know, doing things that, , again, you know, quite dangerous.
Nicole:And I've put myself in situations that, you know, could have cost me a lot more than just a few years.
Nicole:You know, lost to, to active addiction, you know, you know, so that kind of using and scoring of, of the drugs itself is kind of, you know, one side of the trauma and, and, and I think, you know, at least when you're actively in addiction, at least you kind of have a bit of temporary relief, you know, from when you're using, , throughout the day, which when it, when you come into recovery, , and, you know, you put the drugs down the Feelings and the realization of kind of how you've lived your life and, and, and all that kind of, you know, that really hits.
Nicole:And I think that in itself can be really traumatizing, you know, like you finally stare, you know, like your, your PTSD in the face.
Nicole:You kind of stare the people that you've hurt most in the eye and have to deal with all that kind of stuff.
Nicole:And, . You know and and you kind of obviously when when you clean up and stuff you start working on yourself and you have to kind of you have to deal with all the stuff that you push down, you know, and it's kind of Yeah, I mean, it's, it's not easy.
Nicole:It's not easy at all.
Nicole:So, yeah, I mean, as far as, , people in active addiction being traumatized, I think it goes, goes without saying.
Nicole:Yeah, as I say, you know, whether, you know, and, and the thing is, with trauma and pain and all of that kind of stuff, like, obviously, it's completely...
Nicole:subjective, right?
Nicole:You know, pain is relative to the individual that's feeling it and stuff, you know?
Nicole:So what might have been a real easy day at the office for me whilst using might have been like an extremely traumatizing, , experience for someone else, you know?
Nicole:And, and so I just don't think you can go into that life and, and kind of be, you know, like gripped by that disease without, you, You know, walking away, if you're lucky enough to, at the end of it, , without being traumatized, quite frankly, , You know, and, and we will kind of, you know, we're all aware that, , addictions are family disease as well.
Nicole:So like, obviously, again, if you're lucky enough to walk away from it with your life, then it's not just you that ends up being traumatized.
Nicole:Like, without a doubt, those closest to you will be as well.
Nicole:You know, as far as addiction stemming from trauma, , I don't know.
Nicole:I think it, addiction itself to me is, is kind of something that, , I believe is a disease, you know, like a complete health issue.
Nicole:, above anything else that I think whether it's unleashed or not in a certain individual, , I believe you're kind of born with it.
Nicole:So I don't think it stems from trauma, but I do believe obviously those that are, you know, traumatized prior to picking up any kind of form of substance can obviously use that trauma as a reason to use the drugs, drugs in the first place.
Nicole:And then, you know, I believe that once you do.
Nicole:, if you have the same disease that I do, then, , yeah, you kind of, you then won't be able to put the drugs down, right?
Nicole:So then you're kind of in that grip of obsession and compulsion of active addiction.
Nicole:, so yeah, I believe, you know, I think people do pick up the drugs from trauma.
Nicole:I just don't think that is the cause of the nature of addiction itself.
Nicole:Yeah, for sure.
Nicole:I mean, it's like a massive, a massive field, right?
Nicole:And yeah, , thank you so much for sharing about some of your experiences.
Nicole:, I wanted to ask you, like, yeah, how do you think people in active addiction are treated in society in your experience?
Nicole:I mean, not great.
Nicole:You know, I think, , I think it's.
Nicole:Society as a whole, I think, yeah, it's still viewed as, you know, we're viewed as kind of criminals, right?
Nicole:You know, so, , You know, if, if you're, if you, if you're, you know, a hard worker that kind of finishes at three and goes straight down the pub and drinks, you know, a skin full of alcohol, , and then drives home and gets, you know, goes to bed and gets up for work and does the same thing the next morning.
Nicole:That's completely fine, right?
Nicole:But, you know, the minute you kind of use drugs that I did and stuff like this, , or anything illegal, you know, I think we're, we're deemed as criminals.
Nicole:, and in no way is it kind of viewed as, , , a health, you know, a health problem, you know, like an illness or, you know, it's just, yeah, it's, it's a judicial problem.
Nicole:That's not the right word, is it?
Nicole:Yeah.
Nicole:Yeah.
Nicole:Okay.
Nicole:, , yeah, rather than a health issue, you know, and, and, and I think, , , yeah, I think in my experience, especially when it comes to, , professional people.
Nicole:, in this society, like, GPs, , or, yeah, I mean, even, , when I was trying to study, , Once I'd got clean I was still kind of treated really strangely by tutors at college and stuff like this because you know, I talk very openly about my experiences and Yeah, I just I just don't think anyone can accept the fact that You know, like we are as addicts, I believe we're kind of, , all sick people really wanting to and trying to get well rather than, , you know, bad people, , trying to, trying to get good, you know, trying to be good, , that, you know, that kind of along the way, , may cause some problems, you know, like may, , may, you know, , well, break the law, but, you know, it's not, kind of, what people don't seem to realize and what I kind of try and drill into people's heads is that, you know, like, not one person that I know, including myself, would go through the things that I've been through, do the things that I've done, you know, whether that's, like, stealing from my closest family, , members, you know, or, , You know, like putting myself in situations where, you know, like, I'm having a, you know, a gun pointed to my head, whatever it is, like, there's, they're not things that I'd ever choose to do.
Nicole:So you've got to be really sick and have no other choice in your own minds than to do those kind of things.
Nicole:, but yeah, we're not, we're not viewed as, , Sick people were viewed as bad people and that's kind of the, , narrative that I've had, , all through my active addiction and even, even since being clean also, , yeah, and I believe that kind of, you know, most people that I speak to kind of feel the same about it.
Nicole:Yeah, for sure.
Nicole:Like, I know we've talked about like our shared life experiences of feeling kind of dehumanized, like, you know, like through the prison system, , for myself, and like through active addiction for you, like, I just wonder like what that means to you, you know, to be treated like less than human.
Nicole:I mean, Now, as I sit here, kind of, a few years down the line, , since getting clean, , it almost doesn't mean much to me anymore, but it was something that I dwelled on for a long time, and actually one probably kept me in active addiction longer than I wanted to be, , and since getting clean has probably, , You know, for quite a while, probably kept me from being, , the kind of version of myself that I am now, you know, because, you know, you throw enough mud at a wall and it sticks, right, and, you know, kind of, I mean, even to this day, you know, if you ask those closest to me, I probably, , I'm quite quick to slip back into a negative kind of narrative towards myself, you know, like I can, , I'm quick to see myself as a, you know, as a, as a, you know, A piece of shit in a, in a way, you know, and I don't, I don't know if that will ever completely leave me, but that's kind of, you know, through years and years of being dehumanized, I think, , and, , yeah, I kind of, you know, those I've spoken to in and out of active addiction still kind of feel the same, but yeah, I mean, kind of day to day now, like, you know, as time passes, I kind of, I feel kind of, Like I can accept myself for what I am now, and actually, you know, doing, doing things like this, , and like, you know, like, kind of, with the views of helping people, , you know, helps kind of.
Nicole:Bring you back out of that mindset anyway, but , yeah, it's not nice.
Nicole:It's not nice
Nicole:And what's your experience been like in terms of kind of like accessing healthcare like from the NHS for example, like how do they commonly treat people who use drugs?
Rob:Yeah, I mean from the minute I , went to my GP years and years ago, I was probably 16 or 17.
Rob:, the first time I went to my GP and said, I'm in trouble.
Rob:, I need help.
Rob:, from that moment on, I have been treated differently, not by everyone, but by the vast majority, I have been treated differently.
Rob:, spoken to differently, looked down on.
Rob:, even to the point where I have had to fight to get.
Rob:the same kind of treatment, , that someone that, you know, isn't an addict would have got.
Rob:, even to the point where I've been clean, , quite a while now, and, , You know, yeah, multiple years, , not, you know, a few months and I went to the GP very recently with ongoing health issues and even now she I was with my partner.
Rob:She asked my partner to the leave of the room and Looked me in the eye and said You know, I've got a wasp though.
Rob:, are you using because you know , you know, that will kind of, in not so many words, , dictate what help I give you.
Rob:, I said no.
Rob:She pushed and pushed and pushed.
Rob:, and, you know, obviously suggesting that she didn't believe me.
Rob:, and...
Rob:Yeah, she, she told me that she didn't want to refer me for the treatment that I needed for, , the ongoing health issues.
Rob:She, she outright told me she didn't want to do that because she believed that I was using substances still.
Rob:, and...
Rob:Yeah.
Rob:I mean, eventually I did get the help and I did get the treatment I needed, but it was more of a fight than it needed to be.
Rob:And if I didn't have that fire inside me now, you know, , I wouldn't have got it, you know, like, and a lot of people don't have that drive in that fight, especially when they're newer into recovery.
Rob:So, you know, they would have just accepted that and, and walked away not getting the help that they needed.
Nicole:And yeah, like how, how does active addiction like affect relationships and families and communities, would you say?
Rob:So this is like a real personal one, right?
Rob:So, I mean, it's easy to speak for myself, like my, , active addiction has...
Rob:Completely torn apart.
Rob:My, , closest relationships, you know, with family, , yeah, I mean, it got to the point where, , I mean, I, my siblings wouldn't speak to me, you know, they still barely do.
Rob:I've got no relationship with them.
Rob:, and You know, actually, I view myself as one of the lucky ones because I still have two parents that, you know, our relationships aren't the best, but actually, , you know, once having cut me off and once, you know, , they saw that I was kind of doing what I needed to do and putting the work in myself rather than relying on other people or, you know, kind of ignoring them.
Rob:What was going on for me once they saw that, , and it took a while to prove that it wasn't just, you know, another time of me going, I'm going to stop this time or it'll be different, you know, and all that kind of stuff.
Rob:But after a while, you know, I'm lucky that they have kind of stayed, , you know, they've, they've stayed with me.
Rob:They've allowed me to, you know, be a part of their lives still.
Rob:. So yeah, and I know not everyone's that lucky, you know, , you know, I, I'm, I'm, I kind of, I think, , like romantic relationships is another one, I mean, it's, it's very rare that I see, , couples where one is either All right.
Rob:Still in or has been in active addiction and one's, you know, not an addict and, you know, it's very rare that that kind of, , dynamic works right, you know, and, , on the flip side of that, if you have two active addicts, you know, it's really dangerous kind of, , recipe, you know, like it's kind of known that they'll keep each other, you know, in that cycle of addiction.
Rob:If one wants to get clean, , being around the other one, you know, it just doesn't work.
Rob:You'll get drawn back in and vice versa.
Rob:, yeah.
Rob:You know, so it's really hard to maintain even friendships, you know, like, especially when, , you're actively using, you know, you're always kind of worried that, you know, , you know, it's just what you've got that people want.
Rob:And when the drugs, you know, run out and dry up, then, you know, you, you realize that no one's around anymore and all this kind of stuff.
Rob:So just, yeah, maintaining any relationship, , in or out of active addiction when, when you have this disease is really difficult, you know, I mean, . Yeah, I mean, I'm 34 years old and, , you know, for the first time in my life, I found a healthy relationship, but, you know, that, that didn't happen when I was using and for a long time after as well, you know, , and if it does, if you're one of those rare kind of couples that stayed together or, you know, if you're one of the rare, you know, people that, , managed to find love in active addiction, like, you know, that, , it's going to end in, in pain for one or both of you at some point anyway, you know?
Rob:So, yeah, it's not, it's not easy.
Rob:, yeah, I mean as far as how addiction affects communities, I mean...
Rob:Yeah, there's so many ways, right?
Rob:I mean, from the basis of, , you know, having to, you know, addicts having to fund habits and, , as far as addicts kind of having to commit crime to fund habits and stuff, you know, like, , Whether that's kind of, you know, shoplifting, , burglaries, whatever it is, you know, like, there's always, always going to be crime, , until this stuff is, , you know, made legal, and, you know, we, we have other options than to go out and commit crime, , to, to fund Habits until we're ready to get clean, , you know, so there's that, , factor on the community, I guess, , And that's like the larger community, right?
Rob:And in smaller ones, that's such as, you know, groups of recovering addicts or, you know, like, , you know, groups of, you know, because I used to walk around my city and, you know, I'd know everyone, all the users, you know, and in that community, you know, , within that you are kind of losing people every day.
Rob:Yeah, so I mean as far as addiction on the community and how, you know, how it's affected.
Rob:Yeah, I mean, there's the obvious You know, like addicts have to to fund their habits, right?
Rob:You know, I know I did and Yeah, I mean it being an addict in you know, being an active addict anyway itself is like a full time job, right?
Rob:You know like and actually we probably Work just as hard, if not harder than a lot of people, , do on their nine to five, you know, to fund our habits and, , yeah, I mean, you know, a large proportion of that, , especially when you kind of, , you're talking about using, you know, the kind of drugs that, , I spoke about previously, you know, a lot of that is committing crime and, you know, and that crime does affect the community and, and unfortunately, , You know, there's victims every single day of kind of addicts, you know, trying to support their habit and, and, you know, like I've said before, it's not something we want to do, but, , until drugs are made legal, , and so we don't have to commit crimes, you know, and until it's made legal, and is it, you know, a price that we can afford to use when most of us, , you know, are on or were on, , , Benefits because again, it's a health issue and not something we want to do sitting on benefits, you know, until that's the case We have to go out and commit crime, , and the larger community is affected, you know , you know, we don't want to be burgling people's houses or you know, robbing shops every single day to sell The gear on to you know, make a few quid.
Rob:, that's not what we want to do but unfortunately, yeah, that's kind of you know, the larger community is affected in that way and and , yeah, I mean I guess It is from, from a personal point of view, kind of my community that I was in, you know, in active addiction.
Rob:And even, even more so actually since I started getting clean and using the fellowships to, you know, the 12 step program to help me do that and to help me continue to do that.
Rob:, you know, in that, in that personal community, for me it's, it's the losing people that I think is the hardest in that, in that, you know, and I think that's what hits hardest for, for all of us in, in, , You know, in, in these spaces, it's, it's when you get a really close community of people helping each other to, to get clean and stay clean and supporting each other and, you know, building bonds that most people wouldn't be able to understand and then, you know, and then people because of this disease and, you know, and the people start dropping, you know, on a daily basis, you know, we start losing people and, and, and that's difficult, you know, emotionally, that's really, really difficult.
Rob:, yeah.
Rob:You know, and, and, you know, to the point where, kind of, , I was saying to my partner the other day, like, I, I, I was sat in a meeting not long ago, and I looked around, and, and, and, you know, surrounded by friends, and I realized that, you know, literally all of my friends now, like, are either, you know, , murderers or dead, because, you know, we've all been through, done stuff, you know, and, and, You know, we're the lucky ones that have made it either out of prison, out of institutions, you know, and not died and, , you know, and then the rest do and that's, you know, that's a problem, right?
Rob:You know, because, because, you know, people aren't getting offered the help before we need it and, and, you know, before, before we kind of get to that stage and the community will, will continue to be affected until we do.
Rob:So, you know, yeah, I just don't think that that will ever change until it's done.
Rob:Thank you.
Rob:Until the help's put out there, but yeah.
Rob:And, like, what support do you think people in active addiction need?
Rob:, I think, I think that's, I mean the key word is just support.
Rob:I think people in active addiction, , don't, won't ever accept anything like, , you know, I don't know how to put this.
Rob:, I think it's, it might sound counterintuitive, but we need to support people in active addiction to be able to use.
Rob:and just to support them to do it in the safest way possible, right?
Rob:So, like, this country's so far behind, , in its kind of view, , view on drugs and the legality behind it and all this kind of stuff, right?
Rob:You know, we're still kind of stuck in that era of, , you know, Nixon and Thatcher kind of, you know, declaring that war on, on narcotics and stuff, and it's just, that's not helpful, right?
Rob:So I think, you know, an addict's never going to get clean, whether you, like, throw them in jail, like, you know, time after time after time.
Rob:, you know, because that's the, like, there are, there are never big enough consequences to stop us using until we either die, or...
Rob:We are awoken in some way, shape or form to want to do it ourself, you know, like we have to find that, that, that switch has to be flipped, that kind of flame, you know, that, that fire has to be ignited inside us, otherwise we're not going to do it anyway, right, does not matter what you do, like how many family members have cut you off, how many consequences of, you know, overdosing or, you know, whatever it is, like nothing is ever going to stop an addict using until they want to.
Rob:So the only thing we can do is to support people to use without criminalizing them and to do it as safely as possible until that individual is ready to And then when they are, we open the doors to, you know, like a, , an institution, whether that's a 12 step rehab or just a medical detox center, whatever it is that that individual needs, , yeah, when they're ready, we do that.
Rob:But until then we need to stop locking them up.
Rob:We need to stop, , you know, , you know, giving them criminal records and.
Rob:you know, and all of this stuff, , we just need to help them use safely and, and, and, you know, and to do it with compassion and stuff, you know, like if, if you go to Canada now, they have shooting galleries where you, you can go and be around like really nice, pleasant staff that don't judge you, that help you use with clean works, you know, , and to use safely, they don't, you know, you, you don't have to leave straight away.
Rob:So you've got somewhere safe to be until you know that.
Rob:You know, you've not gone over again and, you know, and, and all of this kind of stuff.
Rob:, and, you know, and, and we're just so far behind and that's what we need in this country.
Nicole:So, like, as you were just saying, like, at the moment, like, drug use is, like, heavily criminalised.
Nicole:Like, I saw this first hand in prison for sure, you know, like, masses of people who were there for basically trying to fund their own addictions through shoplifting and other means.
Nicole:As you've mentioned, , yeah, and it's really clear that people with easy access to money, right, like, don't go to prison for using drugs, like, and I know you were fortunate in some ways, like, to have, like, a high paying job, like, during parts of your journey that could sustain you, like, , but yeah, I know, like, you still came into contact with the kind of, like, quote unquote criminal justice system, , I just wondered, like, what are your opinions on drug use, like, being criminalized, like, do you think drugs should be legalized?
Nicole:I know you've mentioned that already, but, like, Yeah, kind of, how would it make a difference?
Rob:I mean, , emotionally and mentally, , you know, trauma wise, it would make a massive difference to be able to be, to, to use, , You know, because we don't have a choice, right, so, so, to, to, to be able to use day in day out without that constant fear of getting nicked again, you know, like, , You know, like you said, like, I, I was lucky enough to, you know, because, you know, in the fellowship we say, right, you know, that it only ends three ways for us, it's jailed institutions or death, and, you know, luckily, , , you know, like, my , my contact with the, with the, , criminal justice system was like severely less than most heroin and crack users, you know, most junkies on the street or most, you know, whatever it is, you know, like most raging alcoholics, you know, I was very, very lucky, you know, I, I, you know, I, I ended up with a record and I have seen inside of a prison and stuff, but I don't think, You know, compared to what most people in the rooms, you know, in the fellowships that I hear talk about their journeys, like I was so lucky and, you know, I only did rehab a couple of times as well, you know, so I, you know, which I probably wouldn't have got if I was, you know, I wouldn't have got if I was locked up for years and years in inside a jail, you know, I wouldn't have got that really loving and caring kind of rehab , , treatment instead of, you know, just being locked away in a cell for years just to, you know, to get out and do it all over again.
Rob:So, , yeah, I think it needs to happen.
Rob:We need, we need, we need, , drugs to be legalized.
Rob:So you're not running around.
Rob:You know, scoring all day with constant fear of, , being nicked again, because that was, you know, although that didn't happen often for me, that was kind of constantly on the, on the, on the back of my mind.
Rob:, and so, so yeah, for, for an addict's mental health, just not having that weigh in on their shoulders all day, every day would be massive.
Rob:, if, yeah, that'd be one of the biggest differences.
Rob:, obviously, you know, like I, even when it comes down to.
Rob:, medicinal kind of, , , like structures of the drug.
Rob:So, you know, , molecularly, like if, if they were kind of, , made as kind of blanket substances across the board because they were legal, it would be really easy to do things like, , you know, like to do a detox at home, you know, like a community detox rather than having to go into institutions and therefore taking up spaces and beds for people that might need it a little bit more than you do.
Rob:. You know, because you, you can't, you know, detox yourself from street heroin because each, each batch is different, you know, like one could be laced with fentanyl and be 100 times stronger than the next, so you can't, you know, give, you can't dose up yourself and wean yourself off of something that you've got no idea whether it's going to be so strong the next hit that it kills you, or you're going to need to do 10 times as much in the next needle because you're not going to feel it, so, , you know, that it'd be a lot safer, you know, you're not going to have the constant fear of, , is the next pin going to, you know, You know, kill me, , if, if it was, you know, decriminalized and, and, you know, there was kind of, yeah, the illegal drugs that you could buy, you know, so all this kind of stuff, I think, you know, as far as, , trauma for my family as well, you know, like I know when I got clean properly, , my mum told me, you know, more than once that she used to go to bed every night, you know, just like petrified that that was going to be the night where she got a call that, , Yeah.
Rob:Yeah.
Rob:You know, that I'd, I'd, I'd not made it through my last use up and, and I think, , you know, I think if, you know, or, or that was it, you know, I'd done something like so horrific in my use in that, you know, this time I wasn't going to be, you know, bailed out and, and, you know, spend the rest of my life in jail or something.
Rob:So like, I think, you know, making it legal would have like.
Rob:caused my, my family to have a lot less anxiety and trauma around all of this stuff as well, you know?
Nicole:Yeah, so I was, I was active in a group like years ago resisting this mega prison up near Leicester and like one of the members was like really passionate about, , an initiative called Support Don't Punish, , which was kind of advocating that drug use should be treated as a health issue.
Nicole:Like we had some events and stuff and it's really interesting.
Nicole:, and I just wondered, like, yeah, where you sit with that.
Nicole:Like, why do you think addiction is a health issue?
Nicole:I mean, the simple answer to do I agree is yes.
Nicole:Like 100%, I do not believe you can, , punish and rehabilitate someone at the same time.
Nicole:Like it's just.
Nicole:impossible.
Nicole:So this podcast aims to like amplify many health projects and initiatives like around the world that kind of offer like grassroots alternatives or like grassroots responses to the sort of inadequacies of state health care.
Nicole:, for example, like we recently interviewed, , the awesome East Tennessee harm reduction project about their work.
Nicole:, and yeah, I know you've been super active in recovery programs, and I've personally learnt like so much from you around these, , such as like Narcotics Anonymous, and I just wondered if you could share about your experiences in NA and like the fellowship in general.
Rob:A lot of people would have heard of, , Narcotics Anonymous, , I guess for those that haven't, , it's, yeah, it's a 12 step fellowship, , derived from, , Alcoholics Anonymous, , with the same 12 steps, only, , yeah, you're focused on all kind of mind altering substances.
Rob:So, , yeah, it's, it's like, it's worded slightly different, , and We recover from the disease of, , addiction rather than just, you know, alcoholism like AA would, , and, yeah, it's, , it's, it's 12 step, it's spiritual based, it's, , complete, , abstinence based program, much like the, , the other 12 step, , fellowships, and for me, it was, , although I went through, rehab again when I, , eventually got clean, it was the fellowship itself that I, I think, , has saved my life and continues to really, , I, the, the rehab I went to, , like I've already said was a 12 step rehab anyway, , so although I knew, , a fair bit about the fellowships before going to, , into treatment, , and then continued to focus on that in treatment, it was only when, , I got out that, , I truly kind of wrapped myself around, , NA and, , yeah, it's kind of, it's, it's what worked for me.
Rob:You know, I kind of, , they, NA suggests to do something called 90 and 90, which is, you know, for newcomers, when you first get clean, you try and do 90 meetings in 90 days.
Rob:And for me, the, you know, this last time round, it was kind of, it was a, , literally a matter of life and death.
Rob:And I was so scared to use again that I kind of.
Rob:I think I did like 120 in 90 and, and kind of threw myself into the fellowship that, that intensely and, and because of that, , yeah, I, I kind of, I, I, I, I got it this time and, , yeah, I was doing meetings morning, noon and night and, and I think, you know, a lot of people, , dip their toe in and kind of wonder why it.
Rob:You know, it hasn't worked for them, you know, and it's kind of, one of the spiritual principles behind Narcotics Anonymous is, you know, to give back, , to the newcomer, what NA gave to you in the first place, and I think because of stuff like that, and because it's run by recovering addicts, , You know, , I think that's really what works because it's not, , you know, you're not having health professionals or, you know, , people claiming to understand what you're going through and have been through.
Rob:So, yeah, I think, , you know, NA as a fellowship is, , it's It's, you know, the meetings are run by addicts, it's for addicts and they are closed off to general public that don't believe they suffer with the disease of addiction and with that kind of, , you know, with that kind of underlying safety and that principle of one addict helping another, I think that's truly the basis of why NA's been around for so long and why it's, it's for, you know, for most people what is being the only thing to work to get them and keep them clean.
Rob:Yeah, and not only that, , you know, the, the actual program itself is kind of, when you start looking into it, it's self explanatory as to what it is and how it works.
Rob:And I do kind of, you know, I urge anyone that thinks they might be suffering with what I suffer with, , to take a look at that.
Rob:But it's, it's deeper than that as well, you know, I mean, , not only do you work the program and you identify with people at meetings and you have a safe place to share, but it also helps integrate you into society in loads of other ways, you know, like, , you know, because it's run by addicts, when you join a group, you kind of, you can take on service positions.
Rob:So, you know, you can.
Rob:Make the teas and coffees or you could be a treasurer, you could be a meter and greeter and, and kind of welcome newcomers in, you know, there's loads of posts and, and that itself kind of helps you, , you know, although I don't agree completely with like having to try and fit in with society, I try my best not to, but it kind of, it, it helps you with what a lot of people might want to do once they've got clean and, and are ready to move on with their life.
Rob:You know, I like get a job or, you know, , even just to, to help, , you know, with the inevitable social interactions that, that come with getting clean that actually a lot of us run from, , and found really difficult in the first place.
Rob:, so yeah, it's, it's, , it's, you know, something that I would recommend wholly to anyone that, you know, is struggling out there.
Rob:Yeah, amazing.
Rob:And I've, like, personally really loved learning, like, much more about the programme and, yeah, like, I just, I didn't have any idea, like, how comprehensive all the step work was in terms of, like, really, kind of, hardcore personal development and, you know, the role of spirituality and stuff.
Rob:Like, I think it's, yeah, really inspiring to hear about.
Rob:, I know you've also volunteered, like, supporting other people struggling with active addiction.
Rob:Thank you.
Rob:in different kind of projects and things.
Rob:And I just wondered if you can share a bit about these experiences.
Rob:And you know, like, what is your opinion of recovery services available to people?
Rob:Like what is missing in this kind of like harm reduction world in the UK?
Rob:Yeah.
Rob:So alongside, , you know, my own recovery and, , you know, taking what I can from the fellowship I have, yeah, I have volunteered a lot.
Rob:, outside of that, , I guess the main thing I did and for, for quite a while, actually, I guess it was for a couple of years was, , I volunteered at the drug and alcohol service, , local to me that, , helped me initially and that funded me to, or partially funded me to go into rehab a couple of times.
Rob:, so yeah, and it's, , it was, , an NHS funded, , drug service, , with the idea of supporting people, , via group work, , via, , yeah, via, , having your own, , personal recovery worker, , getting people into treatment, , or community detoxes, if that's what they need.
Rob:, yeah.
Rob:And, and, you know, helping people, , you know, even to the point of, , harm reduction with clean works, you know, clean, , Needles and other, you know, supplies that a lot of active users needs to stay clean.
Rob:, and yeah, I volunteered.
Rob:I started off with, , you know, just kind of meeting and greeting people.
Rob:, you know, the, the, the new people walking in, , that, you know, rightly so might be petrified and, you know, just having a chat to, you know, making them a cup of tea.
Rob:I'm trying to make him feel welcome because, you know, like for most of us, asking for that help initially is possibly the scariest part of, , you know, the recovery journey and, and yeah, and that progressed.
Rob:I ended up taking on a small caseload, , doing initial interventions with people, you know, running the needle exchange and yeah, and I did all of that for a couple of years and, and.
Rob:It was really, it was really fulfilling to help give back saying that I think there is a massive issue in this country with, with how we go about helping people until they're ready to, , you know, , engage in treatment or, or into the fellowship, you know, because ultimately you have to be ready.
Rob:And in the short time that I worked there and I was, I was, , volunteering, , the, even the use of the needle exchange, , You know, was, , the funding for that was cut and, , you know, it wasn't open five, six days a week like it was initially.
Rob:So it, you know, the, the day that I opened was dropped.
Rob:And, you know, so that harm prevention idea of keeping people safe whilst they use until they're ready was slowly dwindling away.
Rob:And actually it was something that I, , Yeah, I struggled with it.
Rob:It was I kind of moved on and helped people in other ways after that, because ultimately, , it doesn't matter how much you push people to go into treatment, , even offering, you know, with the offer of funding, , because if they're not ready.
Rob:And they don't want to engage in that, then it's just a waste of money, it's a waste of time, you know, there could be other people that are ready, , you know, that could have used that space in that, you know, had that bed in that treatment center that went to someone else, you know, so the whole kind of premise of the drug service started to change a bit, and it was not something I really wanted to be involved in, , anymore, , and, yeah, so I moved on to kind of help people in other ways, , In, yeah, and that kind of looks like, , volunteering at a night shelter.
Rob:, at one point, , just keeping people safe overnight whilst they, , you know, managed to get off the streets.
Rob:, which was, , which was good, it was fulfilling, again, but there was, there was, there was flaws in the, , you know, in the premise of it and, you know, because ultimately people Weren't allowed to use, , in, you know, whilst they're in the shelter, which is fine, and, and I can understand why, but again, you know, it would stop people coming, it would, it was actually keeping people on the streets, you know, these seasoned, , street homeless people weren't taking the, you know, the safety of a shelter because they needed to use, and, and again, because a lot of people look down on that kind of stuff, , because we, we see it as, you know, like, , you know, like, , Yeah.
Rob:you know, criminal behavior, people, you know, people weren't taking the opportunity to stay safe.
Rob:So again, , you know, after a while and after seeing people being turned away and having to turn people away myself, , it started kind of eating away at me and I moved on again from that.
Rob:, so yeah, kind of since then it's just been, I'll do what I can when I can, , whether that looked like, , You know, , before Christmas, walking around and handing out, you know, socks and gloves to people that are street homeless, , or, you know, , you know, giving people food and, and stuff like this, , or, you know, even just stopping to talk to someone about whether they have heard of the fellowship and stuff like this, maybe it's just, you know, an opportunity to plant the seed that might eventually grow, , into something later on, , you.
Rob:Yeah, I just kind of do what I can, when I can, , you know, sponsoring people through the fellowship and stuff like this, , because ultimately, you know, like, yeah, people need to be ready.
Rob:They need to be willing to accept the help.
Rob:, but yeah, I kind of do what I can, when I can.
Nicole:Yeah, and I think I think those kind of responses are really, really important.
Nicole:And like, we talked about earlier with, you know, like, People being dehumanized, like, I think those really simple acts can, like, literally support someone to feel like they're a human, right, and, like, they deserve to live and they deserve to not die from an overdose, for example.
Nicole:, and, you know, like, as most people listening probably know, like, I kind of identify as an anarchist and, like, that broadly.
Nicole:Like to me means being like committed to eradicating like all forms of domination and like, you know, I've been active in different movements for a really long time, like the last 20 years.
Nicole:And I feel like there's really like little kind of political organizing around addiction, like despite its kind of massive impact on society.
Nicole:And you know, like we support folks in prison, for example, who are there for like kill the bill and like fighting back against the police or because they're part of the campaign.
Nicole:But you know, like, the reality is, right, like, most people in prison are there due to kind of poverty and active addiction, , and you know, I think, I think I read some statistic that the, there's like, you know, like, half of prisoners, for example, are addicted to drugs.
Nicole:, but yeah, like, I guess for me, like, I know, like, a lot of people are kind of like following, like, Advice on like what little they know about addiction and like there's always this commentary about Enabling people and that we have to like cut people out And I feel like this means like in political movements that we're also like abandoning people somehow like some people are deserving of support and Solidarity and like others really aren't Yeah, I'm sorry.
Nicole:That's like a total random political rant, but I guess Yeah, I had a couple of questions of like, yeah, what do you think of this whole, like, enabling people thing and like, you know, lots of people that have, like, family members, for example, in active addiction, like, they do end up kind of having to cut ties with them, like, in terms of preserving You themselves somehow.
Nicole:, and I, yeah, I think everyone I know that's had to do that has a lot of grief and like complicated feelings about it.
Nicole:I just wondered like what your like opinion is about that.
Nicole:And also like, , yeah, like what solidarity do you think would be meaningful?
Nicole:Like what do you wish people knew about addiction and, you know, what sort of things do you think people were kind of, , doing in response?
Rob:I mean, as far as, you know, enabling people, I, I think it's.
Rob:Not really a thing, , you know, like, , if you are truly an addict, and, , you know, you suffer with the same thing that I suffer with, , you don't need enabling, you know, you, , find means and ways to...
Rob:find and use drugs day in, day out, whether people are there, , or not, you know.
Rob:, and ultimately, you know, again, if you are lucky enough to have family that are trying to support you, , , you know, which may look to people on the outside as enabling, then, , again, if you suffer with what I suffer with, That support, that kind of drive and want and push from your family or loved ones or friends to stop and get clean and, you know, change your life is never gonna be enough.
Rob:There, there will be, , you know, nothing other than that kind of spiritual change inside you that want to get clean inside you.
Rob:That will be the, the You know, the right kind of drive to, , start your recovery journey.
Rob:So, you know, , yeah, I don't believe enabling is a thing.
Rob:You know, it's kind of like, it's like when people call drug dealers pushers, right?
Rob:You know, like they don't need to push the drugs.
Rob:They don't need to wave it in front of us.
Rob:We will seek it out.
Rob:We will find ways and means to use more, , you know, so yeah, that's kind of.
Rob:You know, it doesn't make any sense to me as an addict, but, , and yeah, and as far as cutting off, you know, cutting ties with people, I think most family, , and friends, , or partners of addicts, , for their own mental health and for their own kind of safety and stuff, like I completely understand when people, , , yeah.
Rob:You know, just cut ties, you know, I, I really get it, like, essentially it happened with me the last time, you know, , I phoned my mum from rehab after being there for a few weeks the last time I was in there, , just to see how things were, and You know, we, we basically had a conversation that ended with, you know, like, we don't really want you back here.
Rob:So, you know, like it was like, you know, you do this and you do it on your own this time and we'll be here waiting, hopefully, you know, at the other end if you're, you know, still alive or you stay clean and stuff, you know, so, , You know, and that was purely to preserve themself, you know, because they had tried to help me in the past and because I wasn't ready, because I didn't want to do it for me, it hadn't worked.
Rob:And there's only so many times people can do that with someone, you know, like before it actually starts to destroy them.
Rob:, and, you know, of course, there's going to be grief on their part, but, you know, like I've already said, you know, addiction is a family disease, you know.
Rob:And, , you know, the family of the addict needs to start recovering too, and what that looks like is completely up to them.
Rob:... You know, and, and, yeah, and I think they deserve that after everything that, you know, us as addicts put them through, so, , I've got no qualms at all with, with people having to do that, and, , you know, and I think, you know, we, we can promise that we will change and stuff like this, but until, , actions put into that, like, you know, I don't, I don't blame people for, you know, creating that space.
Rob:, in fact, I think sometimes it's necessary, , but not for the reasons of, you know, like, it to stop enabling the addict.
Rob:, yeah, as I say, that's not really a thing with us.
Rob:Yeah, , as far as the solidarity, I think Yeah, I think it needs to be spoken about more and you know, I would love to see people coming together.
Rob:I know it's been It's been mentioned in in Parliament before by Russell Brand like a well known recovering addict About you know, trying to decriminalize us as addicts and trying to focus on us being ill people rather than You know criminals like I've said before and It's been like years since he kind of started trying to push that and it just seems like , you know, like, you know, one no was, was enough to kind of, , you know, make, make, make us crumble and stop coming together.
Rob:And I think that's, you know, that's wrong.
Rob:You know, I think we do need to come together.
Rob:We need to start talking about it more.
Rob:We need to, yeah, you know, we need to campaign to get, you know, petitions.
Rob:We need to campaign to get, , you know, our voices heard.
Rob:And, and that's the only way that people are going to start viewing this differently, you know, and we need, we need to, , yeah, we need to start educating people.
Rob:Yeah, and I mean, on top of that, like, it just seems, , like we sweep this problem of, , active addiction, especially the, , like opioids crisis in this country under the carpet, you know, and just pretend like it's not happening.
Rob:, and.
Rob:You know, if you take a look at, , you know, America and stuff, they, they don't do it there, you know, like the, the crisis is always, , you know, it's, it's front page stuff over there to the point where there's like numerous, , You know, grassroots projects of, , you know, recovering addicts, , spending their time, , and their energy going around the streets, you know, with, , naloxone pens, or they have like the inhalers and stuff, the nasal sprays now, , So literally on a daily basis, saving people's lives, , you know, or like, , you know, street medics, , offering people, , you know, dental work kind of, you know, health checks, , and, and going to them to, to, to, to give them that.
Rob:That help, rather, you know, because a lot of us won't, you know, especially street homeless people with no fixed abode over in this country won't go and seek that help.
Rob:They won't go and see a GP or they won't go to a dentist, you know, they'll leave abscesses until they become infected and get sepsis.
Rob:And, you know, all of it, whatever it is, they won't go and seek that help.
Rob:And we don't have that in this country.
Rob:You know, we don't have those soldiers on the streets, you know, with, you know, , putting the footwork into to help them and go to them because we won't.
Rob:You know, addicts won't do it, , you know, and it could save lives.
Rob:It really could.
Rob:And I think that is something that needs to change in this country.
Nicole:Yeah, thank you so much for your time and answering all the questions.
Nicole:Is there anything else you'd like to share in terms of addiction or trauma or recovery or anything you think people listening, , should hear?
Nicole:, Rob: just reach out, just ask for help.
Nicole:, it is out there.
Nicole:, yeah, I mean, you know, you're always going to have to be the one to put the hard work in.
Nicole:, you're going to have to be the one that puts the action in, but, , You know, there, there are places you can go to get wrapped around other people to get the love and support that you need whilst you do that.
Nicole:, so yeah, please, please, please just, just kind of, yeah, ask for help.
Nicole:Go to a fellowship, whether it's AA, NA, like there's CA, cocaine and all this, there's, there's an anonymous...
Nicole:Fellowship for everything.
Nicole:And, you know, whether it's substances, alcohol, any other, , obsessive and compulsive behavior that has got you into trouble and it's affecting your life negatively, , there is a fellowship out there for it.
Nicole:, and you know, if someone like myself can get clean and stay clean, then, , you know, the, the, there is hope for you out there.
Nicole:I promise you that.
Nicole:Thanks so much for listening to the Frontline Herbalism podcast.
Nicole:You can find the transcript, the links, all the resources from the show at solidarityapothecary.
Nicole:org forward slash podcast.