48 – Disability Justice with Cyree Jarelle Johnson

Posted on 29th October 2023

This episode is an interview with Cyree Jarelle Johnson (he/him) from the organisation Sins Invalid that is a disability justice based performance project that incubates and celebrates artists with disabilities, centralising artists of colour and LGBTQ / gender-variant artists as communities who have been historically marginalised. Cyree also describes Sins Invalid as a think tank.

In this episode we explore Sins Invalid’s framework and principles on disability justice, why the disability justice movement must be led by disabled people of colour, and disabled queer and gender non-conforming people, how disability relates to trauma and what ‘Nobody left behind’ looks like in practice. We talk about how capitalism is disabling and antithetical to disability justice, connections with the climate crisis and more. Cyree also shares about his herbal studies, love of mushrooms and tarot practice! Plus so much more!

Links & resources from this episode

Sins Invalid’s Links

Cyree Jarelle Johnson’s Links

Other links mentioned in this episode

Find them all at solidarityapothecary.org/podcast/

Support the show

Music from Sole & DJ Pain – Battle of Humans | Plant illustrations by @amani_writes | In solidarity, please subscribe, rate & review this podcast wherever you listen.

Transcript
Nicole:

Welcome to the Frontline Herbalism podcast with your host Nicole Rose from the Solidarity Apothecary.

Nicole:

This is your place for all things plants and liberation.

Nicole:

Let's get started.

Nicole:

Hey, welcome back to the Frontline Herbalism podcast.

Nicole:

This is another episode in the kind of Politics of Trauma series.

Nicole:

Super grateful to have with me Cyree from a group called Sins Invalid, who are an amazing kind of world leading disability justice organization.

Nicole:

He talks about the principles of disability justice, the kind of framework from from the organization and how it's developed over the years through like tons of movement work, you know, why the movement must be led by disabled people of color and disabled queer and gender non conforming people.

Nicole:

We talk about the kind of politics of trauma and how disability and disability justice relates to trauma.

Nicole:

And you know, then we talk about What does nobody left behind mean, right?

Nicole:

Like, what, you know, what have been our experiences of ableism and movement spaces?

Nicole:

Cyree also shares a bit about his work with tarot and poetry and other amazing kind of creative action.

Nicole:

Yeah, we, you know, we talk about how capitalism is, you know, the most disabling force.

Nicole:

We look at things like, you know, the intersections with climate justice, for example.

Nicole:

Yeah, how, you know, how.

Nicole:

issues such as, for example, air quality relate to disability, which relate to class, which relate to poverty, which relate to capitalism, you know, and how all of these things connect.

Nicole:

But yeah, I think it's an amazing interview.

Nicole:

Yeah, lots of the themes we talk about are things that come up in the herbalism, PTSD and traumatic stress course, which is still open for enrollment for about another week.

Nicole:

You know, I talk about disability justice in the course.

Nicole:

I talk about concepts like healthism and how, you know, we have certain socialized worldviews around health.

Nicole:

That just are not reflective of the kind of real world and the kind of diverse experiences that we have and how they're shaped by all different forms of oppression.

Nicole:

So anyway, I think you will love the interview.

Nicole:

I think you will learn loads.

Nicole:

I was so grateful for his time and I will put some things in the show notes, some of the resources mentioned so that you can check them out and learn more.

Nicole:

Okay, thanks.

Nicole:

Hey, thank you so much for being on the call.

Nicole:

Please can you introduce yourself, your pronouns, and like anything like else you'd like to share about yourself, whether that's political affinities or projects you'd like to include?

Cyree:

Sure.

Cyree:

Hi, I'm Cyree Jarelle Johnson.

Cyree:

I use he him pronouns.

Cyree:

I am The social media and community engagement specialist at Sins Invalid.

Cyree:

I am an herbalist in training.

Cyree:

I am a tarot letterman and playing card reader at Collective cartomancy and a poet.

Cyree:

I am a poet with a book of poetry coming out next year and a book of poetry out already called Slingshot.

Nicole:

Amazing.

Nicole:

Like lots of lots of talents there.

Nicole:

I definitely want to get a copy of your poetry book.

Nicole:

So yeah, like normally, like the guests I've had, I haven't had so many guests on the podcast, but they've mostly been kind of people I know in my networks, like here in the UK.

Nicole:

But yeah, it's unusual for me to have someone who I don't know much about.

Nicole:

So yeah, I just want to say thank you again for being here.

Nicole:

So for folks who haven't heard of Sins Invalid, can you share more about what you do and why?

Cyree:

Sure.

Cyree:

Sins Invalid is a disability justice performance project.

Cyree:

It is also, as I like to say, a think tank.

Cyree:

We are thought leaders around disability.

Cyree:

Initially it was a performance project that celebrated disabled sex and sexuality.

Cyree:

It comes out of, the efforts of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force to be more accessible and inclusive to disabled people.

Cyree:

It formed in 2006, which I was not involved at the time.

Cyree:

I was in high school.

Cyree:

And has coined many of the terms that we, and also defined what disability justice means for, in a lot of different spaces and spheres.

Cyree:

It was founded by Patricia Berne, who is.

Cyree:

still our executive director and Leroy F.

Cyree:

Moore Jr, who is the founder of Krip Hop Nation.

Cyree:

And yeah, I guess that's, I feel like that's an introduction.

Nicole:

Yeah, that's, that's amazing.

Nicole:

That's a great introduction.

Nicole:

So I've been like reading and like returning to the primer that was produced.

Nicole:

It's really amazing.

Nicole:

Called Skin, Tooth and Bone.

Nicole:

The basis of our movement is our people, which is a disability justice primer.

Nicole:

And I know it was a collective effort of lots of different contributors who are mentioned in the book.

Nicole:

And yeah, I just think it's an incredible resource.

Nicole:

And I know it's a really vast question, but I just wondered if you can share more about your framework of like, what is disability justice?

Cyree:

Yeah.

Cyree:

So disability justice is generally described in 10 principles, right?

Cyree:

So and those 10 principles were developed by a collective.

Cyree:

But, I will read some now if you don't mind.

Cyree:

Perfect.

Cyree:

So, the first principle of disability justice is intersectionality, right?

Cyree:

So we understand that white supremacy, supported by capitalism in addition to heteropatriarchy, transphobia transantagonism and ableism has rendered the majority of the world in a position to become disabled, or create, and also creates disability, right?

Cyree:

These intersecting identities.

Cyree:

don't just create oppression, they also limit the ways that our bodies are able to thrive and also keeps us from getting the accommodations we need to thrive in the world, right?

Cyree:

So we can't just look at ableism and expect to understand disability or the need for disability justice.

Cyree:

We have to look also at racism, right?

Cyree:

Anti Blackness, anti Indigeneity.

Cyree:

We have to look at classism, right?

Cyree:

We have to look at the system of capitalism that is itself disabling.

Cyree:

Leadership of the most impacted, right?

Cyree:

So we believe that people who are experiencing oppression are experts on their own lives.

Cyree:

This one is something that people sometimes have a hard time with, but it is extremely essential, which is an anti capitalist politic.

Cyree:

You cannot be a capitalist and also do disability justice.

Cyree:

Not possible.

Cyree:

And again, and that's because capitalism is inherently disabling for our body minds.

Cyree:

And capitalism sees our bodies as worthless because they are not quote, you know, as productive, as capitalism says, they need to be in order to be worthwhile, necessary, and worthy of protection.

Cyree:

And so, because our body minds are considered non conforming, we have to be anti capitalist.

Cyree:

Commitment to cross movement organizing, right?

Cyree:

So disability justice is a movement of many movements.

Cyree:

People are coming to disability justice from all kinds of movements, and they are found within disability justice.

Cyree:

Recognizing wholeness, so knowing that we have worth outside of what we produce, right and undermining capitalist notions of productivity and that everyone has a story, right, everyone has a story, everyone has a lot going on, people are more than just good or bad, they're more than one thing.

Cyree:

Sustainability, this means for ourself, our movements, and also the earth, right?

Cyree:

As the earth is stripped of its resources, more people will become disabled, right?

Cyree:

More people will become displaced.

Cyree:

More people will be traumatized by those experiences.

Cyree:

So, sustainability is an inherent part of the way that we experience disability justice.

Cyree:

It also means we move at a steady pace.

Cyree:

We move at the pace of trust.

Cyree:

We move at the pace that we can, right?

Cyree:

We move, Slow enough that everyone can keep up with the understanding that people's body minds are different and mean different things.

Cyree:

Commitment to cross disability solidarity, and this is always a hard one, right?

Cyree:

Is that like, when we say disabled, we mean all disabilities.

Cyree:

We do mean all disabilities.

Cyree:

And so we honor the insights of our community members with lots of different disabilities understanding that isolation doesn't help anyone get free, right?

Cyree:

It undermines our collective liberation.

Cyree:

Interdependence no one is independent.

Cyree:

We are all relying on each other.

Cyree:

We are all relying on the earth, right?

Cyree:

We're relying on systems to get our needs met, and we are making those systems, or we are barred from, from creating those systems after our needs, or allowing those systems, or asking those systems to meet our needs.

Cyree:

And so we have to depend on our communities and each other and practice collective care.

Cyree:

Collective access, so as Black, brown, queer, trans disabled people, we are bringing flex flexibility and nuance that go beyond what, you know, abled folks think are, is normal or necessary, right?

Cyree:

Just so we can be together, because being together is one of the ways that we make sure we can make a freer world.

Cyree:

And finally, collective liberation because No one is free until we're all free.

Cyree:

That's Fannie Lou Hamer disabled icon, Black disabled icon, Black disabled woman icon, right?

Cyree:

And it's only by being together and fighting for everyone's freedom that we can ever have the things that we need.

Cyree:

So I think that that's...

Cyree:

That's what I'll say about it.

Nicole:

Yeah, that's a super thorough introduction and I, yeah, I really adore the principles in the primer.

Nicole:

Just a side note, do you have, do you have a favorite one?

Nicole:

I know they're all really interconnected, but is there any one of them that kind of gives you goosebumps, if that makes sense?

Cyree:

Yeah, I mean, obviously, like, Collective Liberation is the one that, like, It lights me up, right?

Cyree:

But I think that was, to me, the one that's like really, or really the two that are closest to my heart are anti capitalist politic, right?

Cyree:

Like, there is just no future for disabled people under capitalism.

Cyree:

There's not.

Cyree:

It is not, it like creates so much disability.

Cyree:

It accommodates almost none, really none.

Cyree:

And in addition to that, it wears our bodies out and ensures that we will become disabled and that when we become disabled, we will be discarded, right?

Cyree:

So under capitalism, disabled people cannot live full lives.

Cyree:

There will not be disability justice under capitalism.

Cyree:

And then sustainability, right?

Cyree:

Because like our bodies and the earth, like we're all inextricably tied.

Cyree:

So without that sustainability moving us.

Cyree:

a speed that, you know, works for everyone, but also, like, not consuming all of the Earth's resources, right?

Cyree:

Not pushing the Earth to the brink of disaster, right?

Cyree:

Taking the Earth seriously investing in the Earth, like, believing in the Earth, resourcing the Earth, like, these are things that are essential, in my opinion.

Nicole:

Yeah, for sure, for sure.

Nicole:

Like, I think they're all they're all, like, super powerful and, yeah, like, I think seeing capitalism as this like system that is like inherently disabling is like really powerful, like, especially with what we've witnessed in the most recent pandemic.

Nicole:

So yeah, I can see like that, you know, like a real major kind of present beautiful thread in the work is like intersectionality, like you mentioned, and how all bodies are confined by ability, race, gender, sexuality, class, nation, state, religion, and more.

Nicole:

And we cannot separate them.

Nicole:

It's from the primer.

Nicole:

So yeah, why do you think the, like, why must the disability justice movement be led by disabled people of color and disabled queer and non and gender non conforming people

Nicole:

? Cyree: Because of the principle of intersectionality and the leadership of the most impacted.

Nicole:

So when you're living life as a Black person or another multi marginal, multiply marginalized person, right?

Nicole:

It's not like there's one disabling condition that you need to be mindful of, like there are lots of different and I don't mean conditions like, disabling condition, like I have lupus, right?

Nicole:

Like sure, like lupus is a disabling condition, but I mean the conditions under which you live, right?

Nicole:

So like if you're living in poverty, like, you will be more subject to things like you know, poor air quality, right?

Nicole:

Particulate particulate matter in your air, just breathing it.

Nicole:

So then when something like Kobe comes around, you're way more likely to die or be very sick because you've been breathing in this air that's unfit for human consumption.

Nicole:

If you live you know, near a stream that's been polluted for so long or, you know, well, water that's been polluted for so long, you're drinking water or you live in, you know, somewhere like flint, you're drinking water that's unfit for human consumption, right?

Nicole:

So you will be more likely to become disabled than other people.

Nicole:

I'm personally from a place called called Piscataway, New Jersey which was the site of a military camp, encampment, so Camp Kilmer.

Nicole:

And we found that it left a lot of forever chemicals in our, in our water.

Nicole:

And I do know a lot of people who I grew up with who are very sick.

Nicole:

And I'm certainly not the only one.

Nicole:

You know, who has had these experiences, right?

Nicole:

Like, as people who live on multiple margins we are the ones who are chosen to become disabled first.

Nicole:

It's not that it's not disabling to everyone, but we are forced onto the worst pieces of, you know, or pieces of land that have been, you know, rapidly stripped of their resources and their abilities to heal.

Nicole:

We have been left without food that's fit for human consumption.

Nicole:

We have been pushed into jobs that break down our bodies.

Nicole:

And we are denied care once those the, you know, negative effects of those things take their course.

Nicole:

So leadership of the most impacted means that we're listening to people who are, you know, living more of those margins, more of the time.

Nicole:

And also being responsive when, you know, things change, right?

Nicole:

Like, when, you know, for one question, someone might be the most impacted, and on another question, they might not be the most impacted.

Nicole:

So it really is not just...

Nicole:

You know, black, brown, I mean, it is going to fall that way, right?

Nicole:

But it isn't just like, this group of people should always be the people first consulted in matters of civility, right?

Nicole:

It really depends on what we're talking about, right?

Nicole:

And sometimes, because sometimes that category shifts, other times it doesn't.

Nicole:

You know, who is the most impacted, right?

Nicole:

And, and also the metrics that we determine that are complex, right?

Nicole:

It can't just be like, the government on the census is saying this, right?

Nicole:

Because it's more than that.

Nicole:

And so it really is a mandate to listen closely.

Nicole:

Wow.

Nicole:

Yeah.

Nicole:

That was an amazing response.

Nicole:

And it really reminded me of a tour I did back in 2017 with someone from the U S from a group.

Nicole:

I don't know if you've heard of them called fight toxic prisons.

Nicole:

And they were organizing against like prison expansion and yeah, we were kind of like comparing notes of you know, them wanting to build prisons in the UK, like, on, you know, like, heavily polluted sites, like, radioactive sites.

Nicole:

And the friend was saying, like, how, yeah, like, how prisons are, like, literally built on, like, landfill sites and stuff in the U.

Nicole:

S.

Nicole:

And, yeah, just talking about toxicity and, obviously, race and class.

Nicole:

And, yeah, it was just, yeah, like, You know, it should be shocking, but it's not right because it's so systemic and everywhere, but it is still shocking, like when you really deeply think about it, like you said, when you kind of lean in and listen to it.

Nicole:

So yeah, thank you so much for answering that question.

Nicole:

So this podcast series is like largely focusing on like the politics of trauma.

Nicole:

So I've like interviewed some friends about like trauma and addiction and chronic illness and class and like age trauma and youth oppression.

Nicole:

And, you know, there's like a ton of interviews in the pipeline, but I just wondered if you could speak to how kind of disability and disability justice in general, like relates to trauma.

Cyree:

Sure.

Cyree:

Yeah.

Cyree:

And before that, you know, it should shock us.

Cyree:

You know, like, I think that, like, one of the things about capitalism that is so antithetical to disability justice is that, like, we don't have time to be shocked and that we build up a tolerance for these horrors, for, like, literal horrors, right?

Cyree:

Like, where it's just, like, because it's an onslaught, it's constantly coming.

Cyree:

And so we're like, well, I have to brace myself, I have to go to work.

Cyree:

right?

Cyree:

So I can't be too traumatized.

Cyree:

I have to go to work, but that trauma still compounds in the body, right?

Cyree:

And in, and you know, in the body, in the air, right?

Cyree:

It compounds.

Cyree:

There's no way to get away from it just by keep on keeping on, right?

Cyree:

So yeah, that's just one thing I want to say before I moved on.

Cyree:

But you know, for me and I'll, I'll, I'll speak for myself, you know, I'm systemic lupus.

Cyree:

And so systemic lupus, and in addition to other disabilities, but I have systemic lupus erythematosus, and systemic lupus erythematosus is a disease that disproportionately affects Black, you know folks who produce or inject estrogen.

Cyree:

It is an estrogen linked somehow, because we just don't know that much about it, even though it is an ancient disease.

Cyree:

So it affects a population, a large swath of a population that people don't really care about, right?

Cyree:

So there's already that trauma.

Cyree:

It takes a really long time to get diagnosed.

Cyree:

That's also trauma.

Cyree:

But one thing that people don't always talk about, about lupus is that you can have the potential to have lupus, but lupus is brought out or made more likely to.

Cyree:

Manifest into a negative si you know, series of symptoms by trauma.

Cyree:

So it makes sense that it would disproportionately affect black people.

Cyree:

And also folks who are experiencing the full force of misogynist or trans misogynist or, and or misogynist and or trans misogynist suppression.

Cyree:

Because the level of care that they'll be getting is just not good.

Cyree:

It's not good.

Cyree:

And because you're going to be from a population that doctors are more likely to discard than think they can profit from.

Cyree:

So there's that.

Cyree:

And also the fact that trauma itself is disabling, right?

Cyree:

Sure, like trauma, addiction all of these things can be disabling.

Cyree:

And so when we think of trauma and disability justice, like, well, traumatized folks, folks who are experiencing like the mental illness side of trauma are disabled, right?

Cyree:

So it's not really like, how do they correspond or how do they connect?

Cyree:

It's really more, and also disabled people are more likely to experience violence.

Cyree:

So are more likely to be traumatized around experiences of violence, sexual abuse, much, much more common among disabled people than, you know, the general population.

Cyree:

So when we say, you know, how is it related?

Cyree:

It's like, it's probably easier to say how it's not.

Cyree:

So,

Nicole:

yeah, a hundred, a hundred percent.

Nicole:

And sorry, I'm just sort of like not stunned into silence, but it's like, yeah, it is true.

Nicole:

Like how, yeah, trauma is disabling in and of itself and how, yeah, the kind of distribution of trauma as oppression will trigger, like, you know, something I talk about in this herbalism, PTSD, and traumatic stress course is how much trauma shapes the body, how much it can trigger chronic illness, you know, how kind of long term patterns of being like highly activated in kind of survival, fight or flight.

Nicole:

like sympathetic nervous system states can, you know, contribute to, to chronic disease.

Nicole:

But yeah, you're, you know, you're completely right about how, you know, disabled people are more likely to experience violence and yeah, that was really clear to me.

Nicole:

Like my kind of background is like as a former prisoner and I mostly organize around prisoner support now and yeah, it's just so like unevenly felt of who is in prison, if that makes sense, like whether that's someone there because of like ADHD and like, you know, something like that.

Nicole:

And then also just like the aging population in prison and how many like physically disabled people in prison.

Nicole:

And it's just, yeah, it's just an absolute shit show you know, which is created by design.

Nicole:

Right.

Nicole:

And like you said, like, it's easier to talk about how they're not connected.

Nicole:

So yeah, one of the themes that stands out in the work is this concept of like nobody left behind, which I think is a really beautiful statement and commitment.

Nicole:

And yeah, I guess for me, like, I've, you know, I've been organizing in different movements for nearly 20 years.

Nicole:

And it's kind of really clear that like people are left behind, right, especially with the pandemic.

Nicole:

And I know, you know, I really find that movement spaces are often like super entrenched with ableism, you know, and it just brings me a lot of sadness and anger.

Nicole:

And, you know, I really appreciate how the primer is full of like practical, like access suggestions and bullet points of like things that groups and organizers can implement.

Nicole:

But I just wondered if you could speak to your like own experiences of ableism and movement spaces and kind of like what needs to be transformed.

Cyree:

Sure.

Cyree:

And I'll be vaguer about this because it's, you know, a whole long story.

Cyree:

Yeah, I think that at a certain point, folks on the left will have to ask themselves if they believe what they say they believe.

Cyree:

And I think that no one left behind is You know, it's something that we say in disability justice, and also, yeah, again, we have to ask ourselves if we believe what we say we believe.

Cyree:

Or if we're electing certain groups of people to be left behind in the name of the whole.

Cyree:

Now, I think that some of this is very literal, right?

Cyree:

So during disasters, disabled people are very often not saved.

Cyree:

Or in some disasters, like in Hurricane Katrina in hospitals or some hospitals during Hurricane Katrina, they straight up killed people they could move.

Cyree:

So yeah, like being left behind, being abandoned in emergency situations is something that disabled people, particularly wheelchair users and other folks with, you know, mobility access needs that go beyond What people are willing to provide, right?

Cyree:

So people for whom they may need, you know 24 hour care or they, you know, may be on a floor, like a higher floor of a building than an elevator might be.

Cyree:

be available for, right?

Cyree:

There aren't good plans to take everyone with us in the case of an emergency.

Cyree:

And with climate, you know, crisis, it is going to present even more emergencies.

Cyree:

And that is a state of urgency for an emergency, for sins invalid and, you know, disability justice more generally.

Cyree:

Because, you know It does feel like sometimes on the left, like, a lot of slogans are very symbolic, right?

Cyree:

Like, nobody left behind, in theory.

Cyree:

But, like, what does it mean for nobody to be left behind, in fact?

Cyree:

What would it actually take to make sure that the disabled folks who are in hospitals can be saved in times of crisis?

Cyree:

And what would it look like to push policy to change around making sure that that was something that could occur?

Cyree:

Yeah.

Nicole:

Yeah.

Nicole:

A hundred percent.

Nicole:

A hundred percent.

Nicole:

Okay.

Nicole:

So yeah, like you mentioned at the start, but many people might not realize that Sins Invalids activities, you know, are there as a performance project as well, right?

Nicole:

Which in other words, incubates and celebrates artists with disabilities, centralizing.

Nicole:

centralizing artists of color and LGBTQ slash gender variant artists as communities who have been historically marginalized.

Nicole:

And I just wondered, like, have you been part of any of these performances?

Nicole:

I know you mentioned at the beginning that you're also a poet.

Nicole:

So I just wondered if you could speak to how these kind of feed into your disability justice work and what they mean to you, like these kinds of creative practices.

Cyree:

Yeah.

Cyree:

No, I have not been a part of any of the shows.

Cyree:

No, I have not.

Cyree:

But yeah, the performance project is central to Sins, right?

Cyree:

Like we, our shows are legendary.

Cyree:

And in addition to that, they are different from what most people have seen before.

Cyree:

There are certainly non Sins affiliated performers who are doing wonderful and amazing work.

Cyree:

And additionally we really do pull together folks who have just artistic practices that really shift and shape what people are expecting when it, when they think of disability and performance, right?

Cyree:

And I think that that's in part because so much of disability art and disability performance has been made by abled led projects, right?

Cyree:

Like, so when people think of disability in art, disability in performance, they often think of things that are being organized and, you know, orchestrated by non disabled people particularly caretakers of disabled people.

Cyree:

And if they don't think of that, they're probably thinking of disabled people like Britney Spears under conservatorship, right?

Cyree:

So what what does disabled performance look like when disabled people are free to choose when it, what it looks like?

Cyree:

When they control the narrative and I think that, you know, since Invalid shows, they really do answer those questions and, you know, we've been doing shows since I believe 2007, 2008, could be 2006.

Cyree:

I think it might be 2006, but again I was not involved with since Invalid at the time.

Cyree:

So I do hope that Patty will forgive me for my numbers error due to the fact that I'm not great with numbers.

Cyree:

But yeah, it is, it's something you just gotta see so I do encourage everyone to, you know, buy one of our shows, take a look support us on YouTube, you know, take a look at our work because whatever you're thinking it is, I don't think it's that, right?

Cyree:

It is more and better and bigger and brighter and more beautiful than anything you can imagine if you haven't seen it.

Cyree:

And yes, I am a poet.

Cyree:

I am a poet.

Cyree:

I'm proud to be a poet.

Cyree:

Yeah, tell me about your poetry.

Cyree:

Sure, I'll tell you about my poetry.

Cyree:

I'm an experimental formalist, right?

Cyree:

So I think that, like, the form of a poem, the shape of a poem, acts as the body.

Cyree:

And so form can tell us more about what disability means than, I think, sometimes hitting it dead on.

Cyree:

And it's not because of what I can say, it's because of what people can receive.

Cyree:

And so, for someone who understands themselves as able, no matter whether they're disabled or not, right, someone who perceives themselves as being able, it's, and thinks that they'll be abled forever isn't really going to respond if I'm like, yo, like, I'm in pain all the time.

Cyree:

Like, lupus means I'm in pain 100 percent of the time.

Cyree:

Like, I'm doing this, I'm doing other things.

Cyree:

I am in at least three at all times of pain.

Cyree:

It's not going to be relevant for them.

Cyree:

They're not going to have any, they're going to other it.

Cyree:

You know what I mean?

Cyree:

I experienced it as a trans person as well, right?

Cyree:

Like, people can't really understand what it means to live your life.

Cyree:

And art is the act of trying to create connection across difference, in addition to other things, right?

Cyree:

But one of the things that I can do is create connection across the difference.

Cyree:

And so people have to understand.

Cyree:

And so that's something I admire about like ex experimental artists, including myself, is that like, sometimes the only way to make yourself understood is to resist being understood in a logical sense.

Cyree:

Yeah, and I think that that's also something that I find true for myself as, you know, a disabled person whose relationship to being, I guess quote, you know, quote, unquote, physically disabled.

Cyree:

It changes.

Cyree:

It shifts.

Cyree:

Like there have been times in my life where I've walked with a cane.

Cyree:

There's been times in my life where I was unable to walk very far, very quickly at all.

Cyree:

Right.

Cyree:

I remember the first time someone called me a gimp.

Cyree:

I was probably I must've been 14, 15.

Cyree:

Right.

Cyree:

And I just lost my ability to walk without a limp.

Cyree:

And people said I was faking right.

Cyree:

And I'm in excruciating pain at that time.

Cyree:

And it's just not something that people can really understand or integrate into their worldview.

Cyree:

Like that somebody's body is a shape shifter in there.

Cyree:

And like, Constantly in flux, constantly changing, and that not only can they not be predicted by others, like they can't always predict themselves, right?

Cyree:

So it is within my work that I can really hold those contradictions and, and really think about like, what does that mean?

Cyree:

What else is that like?

Cyree:

Like, how can I make that felt through language?

Nicole:

Yeah.

Nicole:

Wow.

Nicole:

Amazing.

Nicole:

Like, I think, yeah, that's, that's a really beautiful way of framing it.

Nicole:

And you mentioned you've got like a, a book published or like an anthology published.

Cyree:

I have several books.

Cyree:

And I have, okay, so my book that is outright, well, one of the books that's out right now, my book of poetry that's out right now is called Slingshot.

Cyree:

It's on Nightbow Books.

Cyree:

And it is, Autobiographical and also bioethical biographical biography.

Cyree:

And it is formal poetry, serial poetry some free verse for sure.

Cyree:

And it centers on climate crisis and what that means for individual people as seen through the story of a mother and her son.

Cyree:

Both of the people are based on me, okay?

Cyree:

I should say that because there's been confusion in the past.

Cyree:

And I have a book coming out and that book won the Lambda Literary Award for Gay Poetry in 2020.

Cyree:

And I have a book coming out called Watch Night, which is a book of elegies and a continuation of that story that's also about climate crisis and climate dis placement of Black people in the United States.

Cyree:

And it has won the James Laughlin Second Book of Poetry Prize from the Academy of American Poets.

Nicole:

Wow.

Nicole:

Amazing.

Nicole:

And I will put the links to these in the show notes so that people can order a copy.

Nicole:

You mentioned climate crisis a couple of times and I, I saw it was also a theme in the, in the primer, in the Disability Justice book.

Nicole:

Yeah, could you just, like, speak to that a little bit of, like, how, how they're connected, like, disability justice and like, the climate

Cyree:

crisis?

Cyree:

Yeah well, climate crisis is going to create a lot of disability, and when, and as, really as we see increased climate migration we know that that will be based, you know, who is able to migrate, who is accepted into a different environment.

Cyree:

country, right?

Cyree:

It will be based at least in the part of the world in which I live.

Cyree:

I live in the United States on whether or not they're disabled, right?

Cyree:

You know, and also, you know, with the crises of the border, borders, right?

Cyree:

And I don't mean like crisis at the border where people are migrating.

Cyree:

I mean, like, the fact that there are borders is a crisis, right?

Cyree:

It is unjust to just erect a border and decide who can You come and who cannot come and anti indigenous and a million other things and also bad for the land, right?

Cyree:

Bad for the land, bad for the earth and also, as I said before, disabled people are often not saved during times of disaster.

Cyree:

So there's that connection.

Cyree:

And additionally, right?

Cyree:

The byproducts of climate change are not just disabling, but they're extremely deadly.

Cyree:

So and they're not spread around evenly, right?

Cyree:

We can see that rich people are ready to leave the literal planet in order to continue colonizing, first of all, and also to evade the effects of climate change they made.

Cyree:

So there's a lot going on I think I said it in other parts of this interview, but yes, you know, disabled people are going to be the people who experience the effects of climate change and already are, you know, climate crisis first and worst.

Cyree:

So, I'll leave it there.

Nicole:

Amazing.

Nicole:

Thank you so much.

Nicole:

And I heard at the beginning in your introduction that you mentioned you called yourself a trainee herbalist.

Nicole:

And I just wondered, as this is a herbal medicine show, even though I, yeah, end up talking about politics much more than I do herbs, even though they're, you know, extremely connected.

Nicole:

Well, completely connected, but I just, yeah, yeah.

Nicole:

like, just, I'm just curious to hear yeah, what your relationship is to plant medicine and where you're at on that journey.

Cyree:

Yeah, so I did levels one and two at Sacred Vibes and right now although I did not finish the program but I'm finishing a program at Rootwork Herbals up in Ithaca so after that I'll need to apprentice and then I can say that I am an herbalist.

Cyree:

Kind of, right?

Cyree:

A baby herbalist at that time.

Cyree:

So I'm like right in the middle of my training.

Cyree:

I, you know, towards, I'm like, I would say I'm like completing the second third of it.

Cyree:

And I am working in an ancestral, or, well, a tradition of care and plant relationship with plants and play a relationship with the earth.

Cyree:

And because of that I'm studying, studying bioregional herbalism.

Cyree:

I'm from the woods a very, like a now very gentrified wood woods by a now very polluted river, but I also live in the woods now.

Cyree:

And it's just a different way of living near your medicine, right?

Cyree:

Like, and also it just like gives you a different level of investment in the earth when it's like, if it floods, I'm not going to have electricity.

Cyree:

And if I don't have electricity, I'm not going to have water.

Cyree:

So I've invested in the health of the, you know, in the, in the happiness, right, of the rivers that I live near and the health and the happiness of the land that I live with, right of the animals that I live around, right?

Cyree:

Our, our fate is so tied.

Cyree:

And so really wanting a relationship, a close relationship with, The plants of the region in which I was born and to want to be part of the group of people that cares for this, you know, for the land and not like for our air and make sure that we have a livable life ahead of us.

Cyree:

But also I'm a mushroom person, right?

Cyree:

Like I'm very much a mushroom person.

Cyree:

Not just psychedelic, but like certainly also nootropic.

Cyree:

I have a relationship with Dandelion.

Cyree:

I have a relationship with Reishi.

Cyree:

Yeah.

Cyree:

I have a relationship with I guess this year, Yarrow.

Cyree:

A lot of Yarrow.

Cyree:

And also a lot of Catnip.

Cyree:

So they're, you know, that is part of the religion that I practice, but it is also a part of yeah, like my commitment to study.

Cyree:

It's part of my practice as an intuitive as well.

Cyree:

But it's also part of my practice of disability justice and anti capitalism.

Nicole:

It was, like, really hard to not make, like, a fungi joke.

Cyree:

You did well for it.

Cyree:

Yeah, no, I am, I, I don't know if I am a fungi, that's the thing.

Cyree:

I think I'm if you like boring stuff, but, like no, I am I

Nicole:

love, I love Mushroom Nerds.

Nicole:

Like, I feel like, I'm, like, too full of plants that, like, I can't get in, like, The mushrooms just, like, blow my mind too much that I just, like, can't hack it.

Nicole:

Does that make sense?

Cyree:

Like, but It makes total sense.

Cyree:

And I wanted to be, like, a flower person.

Cyree:

Like, I really wanted that for me.

Cyree:

Like, when we, like you do a plant walk.

Cyree:

And, and also, honestly, I did a plant walk, both at Sacred Vibes and I, you know, I'm doing one now in Rootwork.

Cyree:

And I feel like the closest that I can, really get to being a flower person is dandelion.

Cyree:

You know what I mean?

Cyree:

I've always, dandelion is the plant that brought me into this path for sure.

Cyree:

When I was very, very young, it was like dandelion.

Cyree:

I was like, what?

Cyree:

Wow.

Cyree:

And it just blew my mind, right?

Cyree:

Dandelion how accessible and how powerful a dandelion is, right?

Cyree:

Like, and the dandelion announces its power, right?

Cyree:

Like it's, it's never hiding it.

Cyree:

A dandelion is like, no, you can pull me out.

Cyree:

I'm going to grow back.

Cyree:

I'm going to grow back tomorrow.

Cyree:

You're going to be amazed at how quickly I grow back.

Cyree:

But mushrooms are, are ancestors or like elders, right?

Cyree:

Like mushrooms are so old.

Cyree:

They're older than us by a mile.

Cyree:

They're like, honestly, they're like gods.

Cyree:

You know, like, it's very weird what a mushroom is.

Cyree:

And it's weird how much they can do.

Cyree:

Like, it gives alien, you know what I mean?

Cyree:

Like, it's just not comprehensible.

Cyree:

And so, like, it's no surprise that they do what they do to our brain because it's like, kind of, it may be the reason our brains are like they are at all, right?

Cyree:

So, those are the things I think of when I think of mushrooms.

Cyree:

I love mushrooms.

Cyree:

I'm a mushroom person.

Cyree:

Yeah,

Nicole:

no, they're amazing.

Nicole:

And like, I was, whenever I get interviewed on Herbal Podcast, they always ask me to be like, Oh, what's your favorite plant?

Nicole:

And I like win, because there's just like so many, and I'm so happy that you mentioned dandelion and yarrow and catnip.

Nicole:

And yeah, dandelion, I think you're right.

Nicole:

It's got this amazing energy.

Nicole:

Like it's one of the like main herbs in this prisoner herbal book that I wrote which goes out to prisoners like around the world.

Nicole:

And I think it is this like gateway plant.

Nicole:

Like, I think it, it's almost like one of its reasons for being is just to be like, yo, I exist, like come on, like learn my, you know, learn about my medicine.

Nicole:

Well, like, best of luck on your herbal journey.

Nicole:

Like, I'm so, yeah, I'm so happy, and I think, yeah, I think plants give us, like, so much strength, like, especially in a kind of capitalist society.

Nicole:

So, yeah, for people who are listening, like, how, you know, like, where can people find your work?

Nicole:

And also, like, how can people support Sins Invalid and the disability justice movement in general?

Cyree:

Yeah, well, you can find our work at sinsinvalid.

Cyree:

org.

Cyree:

And you can always donate, like watch one of our shows, come to a workshop, follow us on Instagram, follow us on YouTube.

Cyree:

And, make sure, you know, you're advocating for disability justice in your everyday life.

Cyree:

Like, be there for the people who are disabled in your life.

Cyree:

Wear a mask, right?

Cyree:

Get the vaccine.

Cyree:

End the COVID pandemic, you know, ongoing COVID pandemic.

Cyree:

Yeah.

Nicole:

Amazing.

Nicole:

Thank you.

Nicole:

And, sorry, absolutely last question.

Nicole:

I also saw on your website, and you mentioned it in the introduction as well, about tarot.

Nicole:

And I know for sure that like, you know, 99 percent of people who listen to this podcast will also be loving, you know, working with tarot cards and stuff.

Nicole:

So I just wondered if you wanted to plug your tarot work, because you do, you do readings, right?

Cyree:

As well?

Cyree:

I do.

Cyree:

I, I do, I, I do a lot of teaching and I also do.

Cyree:

Readings, of course.

Cyree:

I read Tarot, Lennerman, and playing cards.

Cyree:

So yes, cartomancy.

Cyree:

And you can find me online at https://www.collectivecartomancy.com/.

Cyree:

Or collectivecartomancy on Instagram, and Cyree Jarelle Johnson on TikTok.

Cyree:

So, yeah if you're interested in anti capitalist readings of tarot and cartomancy rooted in Black liberation and Black liberation traditions including Hoodoo, then you will like my work.

Cyree:

And if you're not into those things, you really won't.

Nicole:

Amazing.

Nicole:

Thank you so much for your time.

Nicole:

Is there anything before we finish that?

Nicole:

You know, I, I haven't asked that you'd like to share or anything we've missed together.

Cyree:

Follow us on YouTube.

Cyree:

If you're curious about what Sin and Valley work send and valley's work looks like I really encourage you to follow us on YouTube.

Cyree:

Follow us on Instagram if you're on there too.

Cyree:

But yeah, keep in touch with our work.

Cyree:

And oh, and we have a free email course called Crip Crash Course that takes you through just thinking about disability justice and how it impacts our work and your work and your movements.

Cyree:

And it gets delivered directly to your inbox for three days.

Cyree:

For free.

Nicole:

Amazing.

Nicole:

That is a great resource.

Nicole:

And yeah, I'll put all the links in the show notes, but I just want to say again that I think the Primer is a really fantastic resource.

Nicole:

And yeah, okay.

Nicole:

Thank you so much for your time.

Nicole:

That was really amazing.

Nicole:

I really appreciate it.

Nicole:

Your flexibility with moving the show around and stuff.

Nicole:

And yeah, I cannot say thank you enough.

Cyree:

Thank you.

Cyree:

And,

Cyree:

Have a good day.

Nicole:

Thanks so much for listening to the Frontline Herbalism podcast.

Nicole:

You can find the transcripts, the links, all the resources from the show at solidarityapothecary.org/podcast.