65 – Solitary Gardens with jackie sumell

Posted on 31st August 2024

In this episode Nicole (she/her) interviews jackie sumell (she/her) from the Solitary Gardens Project. jackie is an artist and abolitionist who has spent more than two decades working with folks serving their sentences in long-term isolation. The Solitary Gardens turns solitary confinement cells into garden beds that are the same size and blueprint as the cells people have spent decades in. 

In this interview we explore all the things! I know you will come away feeling incredibly inspired.

Links & resources from this episode

Solidarity Apothecary links

Find them all at solidarityapothecary.org/podcast/

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Music from Sole & DJ Pain – Battle of Humans | Plant illustrations by @amani_writes | In solidarity, please subscribe, rate & review this podcast wherever you listen.

Transcript
Nicole:

Welcome to the Frontline Herbalism podcast with your host Nicole Rose from the Solidarity Apothecary.

Nicole:

This is your place for all things plants and liberation.

Nicole:

Let's get started.

Nicole:

Hello, welcome back to the Frontline Herbalism podcast.

Nicole:

Here I am sharing an amazing interview with jackie sumell from the Solitary Gardens Project.

Nicole:

She will speak to Yeah, what the project is about and its origins, but it's a really incredible project connecting abolition and gardening and food growing spaces and yeah, all the things.

Nicole:

I think it's, yeah, probably one of the most beautiful projects that I know of that really collaborates like deeply with people in solitary confinement.

Nicole:

So yeah, this interview was recorded just before I gave birth.

Nicole:

So there's a tiny bit of time travel.

Nicole:

Just a couple of reminders that there's still time to order e books with all the, with all the income going to the Sameer project in Gaza.

Nicole:

And yeah, there's still some places on the Practical Medicine Making Intensive taking place at the end of September.

Nicole:

And also not long to go now until my Herbalism PTSD and Traumatic Stress course.

Nicole:

So I will put those links in the show notes and I'll put all of the resources from the Solitary Gardens in the show notes too.

Nicole:

Thanks so much again to Jackie for her time and yeah, please enjoy the interview.

Nicole:

Okay.

Nicole:

Hey, thanks so much for coming.

Nicole:

Please, can you introduce yourself, your pronouns, like any political affinities or projects you'd like to include?

jackie:

Hey, Nicole Rose.

jackie:

I'm jackie sumell.

jackie:

I use she, her pronouns.

jackie:

I am here in Bulbancha, the unceded territory of the Chitimacha, Choctaw, and Houma nations.

jackie:

Currently also called New Orleans, Louisiana, and I'm coming to you with big blessings and conversations around solitary gardens, the abolitionist apothecary, the John Thompson Legacy Center, and freedom to grow.

Nicole:

Yeah.

Nicole:

Amazing.

Nicole:

Yeah.

Nicole:

Thank you so much for coming.

Nicole:

Like, so I've had like such an organizer crush on the project, like on Solitary Gardens ever since I found out about it.

Nicole:

And like every time you share stuff on Instagram, I literally cry.

Nicole:

But for folks who don't know like what you do, can you share a bit about yourself and what the Solitary Gardens project is about?

jackie:

Yeah, I'd be happy to share.

jackie:

I just want to like make it publicly known that the crush is mutual and that your book has been shared with many folks inside carceral institutions here in the colonized United States and I'm just so grateful for your work.

jackie:

Yeah, and and thankful that we're able to meet each other in this, you know, digital airspace.

jackie:

I mean, all of my personal and political orientation comes from my elders.

jackie:

Those are Herman Wallace, Albert Woodfox, and Robert King, primarily.

jackie:

But I also have done some deep work with a man named Wally Moo Johnson and John Thompson.

jackie:

These are all formerly incarcerated folks here in Louisiana.

jackie:

Herman Albert and Robert are collectively known as the Angola Three because they spent decades in solitary confinement in, in the largest penitentiary in the colonized United States, which is the Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola.

jackie:

And so that is up river, up the Mississippi River from where I am currently.

jackie:

It's about two and a half hours drive away.

jackie:

And I think it's really important to ground this conversation and orientation around the history of Angola.

jackie:

which, you know, is nicknamed the plantation, nicknamed the farm because of its egregious history as a plantation.

jackie:

Angola was first colonized by a man named Isaac Benjamin, actually from Great Britain, who recognized the potential of creating wealth and profit by creating an enslaved person breeding plantation upriver from the slave port of Nouvelle Orleans or New Orleans.

jackie:

And, you know, at the time, Louisiana was colonized first by an indigo plantation, and then subsequently, the largest chattel crops were actually sugarcane.

jackie:

Which were the, the bloodiest and most violent of all of the chattel crops, all of the forced labor crops.

jackie:

And so Isaac Benjamin colonized and created a plantation where he could repopulate those sugarcane fields with enslaved persons.

jackie:

And it has this, you know, egregious legacy in the soil.

jackie:

As much as it does in the economic paradigm in 2024 where every able-bodied prisoner is forced to work for two to 20 cents an hour, a minimum of 40 hours a week on that same land, you know, and 30% of the population of Louisiana, a little more is, is Black, but 76%.

jackie:

plus or minus of the population that's incarcerated, or I would say enslaved, in Angola prison today is Black.

jackie:

And so we're seeing this legacy of forced labor practices predominantly on Black and Brown bodies whose ancestors were part of chattel slavery in, in the state of Louisiana.

jackie:

And, you know, I gained access to this work in the early 2000s by meeting a man who spent 29 years in solitary confinement in Angola.

jackie:

His name's Robert King.

jackie:

And he came home and, and shared his story.

jackie:

And I was, you know, in shock and disbelief as a, a graduate student out in California.

jackie:

And, you know, the, the long, long story tolerable is that, you know, I just asked him, what can I do as a, as a graduate student?

jackie:

And he said, write my comrades, write Herman Wallace, write Albert Woodfox, and let the prison know you know they're alive.

jackie:

And so I've spent the last 23 years in orientation around their lives and legacies, and in doing so, you know, gotten to know many, many people who are kept in solitary.

jackie:

confinement here in the U.

jackie:

S.

jackie:

And so my work, you know, which began as a collaboration with Herman, so Herman was on his 29th year of solitary confinement, 29 years in a six foot by nine foot cell, a minimum of 23 hours a day.

jackie:

And when I was 29 years old, and we collaborated on a project called the house that Herman built, where he designed envisioned his dream house.

jackie:

For about 12 years, and I, as an artist, translated those drawings into this, you know, traveling exhibition and book, and ultimately it became a, a documentary, which, you know, I, I, in no uncertain terms believe was advocacy campaign that worked as a fulcrum to his ultimate freedom, on October 1st, 2013, the federal courts here in, in, in the United States, overturned Herman's conviction and, and he came home, He joined the ancestors three days later on October 4th, 2013 suffering from the advanced stages of, of liver cancer.

jackie:

And so, you know, I live in Louisiana to be closer to Herman and Albert and, and to continue this work.

jackie:

And so when, when Herman passed, it was.

jackie:

It was really disorienting at best and devastating at worst.

jackie:

And I really had to reinvent, you know, some of the purpose which went from bringing him home to upholding his life and legacy.

jackie:

And that's where the birth of Solitary Gardens came from.

jackie:

You know, Herman and I, not only shared visits to the prison twice a month, but, you know, thousands of letters.

jackie:

And so when he joined the Ancestors, I went back and read those letters, and in a shared space that I know you and I occupy, realized how much He talked about plants and gardens and how much, you know, the, the natural world fueled his possibility and gave him life.

jackie:

And, you know, in fact, when I asked him what kind of house does a man who's lived in a six by nine cell for 29, 30, 41 years dream of, he said, I can clearly see the gardens and they will be full of gloxinia.

jackie:

Delphiniums and roses, and I wish for guests to be able to smile and, and walk through gardens all year round.

jackie:

And so the Solitary Gardens takes that cell, that six by nine cell that Herman, Albert, Robert, Wally Moo, JT, all of these elders have, have spent decades in and turns it into a garden.

jackie:

And that garden is then grown with someone who is currently incarcerated, you know, and in a lot of ways, the solitary gardens become portraits of folks who are condemned to the worst of our humanity and our complicity here in the, in the colonized United States.

Nicole:

Ooh.

Nicole:

I, I told you before we started that everything makes me cry with this pregnancy and in general, but yeah, I can really hear the.

Nicole:

the pain of the grief of that relationship and how, how much it must have, yeah, shaped, shaped your life as well as the project.

Nicole:

So yeah, just briefly, like what are people in solitary confinement where you are like commonly experiencing, you know, you mentioned the size of the cells and the 23 hours a day bang up.

Nicole:

Can you speak about any of the prisoners who are currently connecting with at present and what life is like for them?

jackie:

Yeah, I mean, I think.

jackie:

In no uncertain terms, that solitary confinement is cruel and unusual punishment, which is alleged to be protected.

jackie:

under the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution here in the U.

jackie:

S., you know, and so solitary confinement is, is actually a really hard target to hit in terms of abolition because it's named so many different things.

jackie:

It's a monster with a different name depending on the institution where you are incarcerated.

jackie:

In Angola and, you know, just to Just to be clear, we have solitary gardens around the country and we work with incarcerated folks around the country.

jackie:

So in different prisons and jails and detention centers.

jackie:

In Angola, the prison, you know, that I've spent the most time in solitary confinement is called CCR, closed cell restriction.

jackie:

And, you know, anyone can be put into solitary at the discretion of of the correctional officers.

jackie:

So there's no judge or jury that determines whether or not you will spend time in solitary.

jackie:

It is, you know, the keepers of the death camps that, that, that make the rules, which is another layer of cruel and unusual.

jackie:

The physical shape is a six by nine cell with a bed, a desk, a toilet sink.

jackie:

And so the negative space we were actually allowed to physically move is actually smaller than six by nine.

jackie:

One of the, the things that King used to say was even more torturous is that they, they're six foot by nine foot by 12 foot high.

jackie:

And so there's a negative space or empty space.

jackie:

The most space is actually unusable.

jackie:

It's above you.

jackie:

So you're in this, you know, space is a premium.

jackie:

And then you have all of this empty space that, that can't be used because it's, You know, it's cement and steel inside the solitary cell, but you know, I've worked with folks who are in ADX, which is the federal prison.

jackie:

It's a super max prison in Colorado, and 80 percent of that prison is actually intentionally built underground to continue torturing, you know, to further the fulcrum of torture that we are capable of doing here in, in, in.

jackie:

in a colonized United States.

jackie:

And so that, you know, the, the folks that are in ADX, I say 23 and 1 at Angola, for instance, which is 23 hours inside the cell, one hour outside.

jackie:

At ADX, it's 24 hours inside the cell.

jackie:

There's actually a shower in there.

jackie:

And you have to sort of work your way up through good behavior to be able to leave the cell, to go inside another cell, an outside cell, which would be yard time.

jackie:

So that's also, you know you're never having human contact.

jackie:

So you're deprived access to human contact.

jackie:

And you know, I just want to be be clear that we as human beings design these cells.

jackie:

We as human beings design our carceral institutions and, and we as human beings have every capacity to to destroy them, to unbuild them with the possibility of, of actually creating systems that address harm without creating more, you know?

jackie:

And so, although so much of what I, I share, what I've had access to the last 23 years is radically devastating, it is also radically empowering.

jackie:

Because if we are complicit in these systems of punishment and control, we are, we are ultimately connected.

jackie:

And then it is possible to dismantle them as much as it is possible to build them.

Nicole:

Yeah, for sure.

Nicole:

And like, yeah, one of the beautiful questions kind of often found on your social media and etched into your gardens is like, can you imagine a landscape without prisons?

Nicole:

And I can really hear you speak to that in this process of like unbuilding them.

Nicole:

But yeah, what does that, what does this question about like, imagine a landscape without prisons mean to you?

jackie:

I think that, you know, one of the first targets of the oppressor is the imagination, and one of the giant gifts of the natural world is a healing of the imagination.

jackie:

You know, Herman was able to exist outside of his conditioned confinement, his physical confinement, because of the superpower of his imagination.

jackie:

And arguably, if it wasn't so powerful, if it wasn't so dangerous, You know humanities and arts programs around the country wouldn't be the first cut in our public schools and, and, and, you know institutions.

jackie:

And so this idea of imagining a landscape without prisons is really seeded as a prompt and a call.

jackie:

There have been times in, in collective human history where prisons did not exist.

jackie:

And I'm not, I'm not saying that the, the forms of, of punishment and torture were any better, but we imagined them and we built them.

jackie:

And so what can we build?

jackie:

in their place, you know?

jackie:

What kind of institutions can we build in the places and spaces where where prisons once existed, you know?

jackie:

And, you know, how are we able to imagine that, not only based in the prompt to imagine a landscape without prisons, but how can we collectively build them?

Nicole:

And yeah, like another, another thing that's like a common theme, like in your t shirts and plaques in the gardens are like saying like grow gardens, not prisons.

Nicole:

And I'm just curious as like, how do you connect like plants and abolition through your work?

jackie:

Actually, you know, there's, I think that, well, I know one of the first tenets of abolition is wonder.

jackie:

So if, if we have wonder or curiosity about alternative systems to address harm, you know, we are human beings.

jackie:

We will, we will hurt each other.

jackie:

We are going to make mistakes.

jackie:

We will cause harm.

jackie:

But if we can.

jackie:

Understand, as Danielle Sered says, you know, that nobody enters violence for the first time by committing it.

jackie:

And we have a sense of curiosity of, of, of the origins of violence.

jackie:

If we can, if we can chase those threads, I think then we can heal cycles of violence.

jackie:

And so the connection to the natural world, like I, I, I think that plants in the natural world are advocates of it.

jackie:

of abolitionist landscape in many ways.

jackie:

You know, they inspire a sense of wonder and curiosity to begin with.

jackie:

But I also think, you know in, in many examples, the natural world behaves in ways that are Far more humane than we human beings, you know, in their collective ability to share and care for each other in the ways that, you know, mycelium, for example, supports trees and plants and brings them nutrients.

jackie:

And then vice versa, the way the trees and plants can communicate to each other through networks of mycelium, you know, and, and I think there are, there are very clear and individual examples.

jackie:

of the ways that plants advocate for an abolitionist landscape, which, you know, we talk about on our website.

jackie:

We have an ongoing library.

jackie:

It's growingabolition.

jackie:

com forward slash plants.

jackie:

And in that library, you can engage with these contemplative questions.

jackie:

that are meant to be answered during the life cycle of the plants themselves, but they really explore the different ways that plants advocate and support an abolitionist lifestyle.

jackie:

And if it makes sense, Nicole Rose, I would be happy to maybe read a little bit about one of the plants and some of the ways that we're, we're looking to the plants for solutions for the crises that we humans have created.

Nicole:

Yeah, I would love that so much.

Nicole:

And I think people listening to the show are mostly plant geeks, so they would love it too.

Nicole:

So yeah, take it away.

jackie:

I'll let you pick.

jackie:

I'll just tell you like I've narrowed it down to thistle, ginger, plantain, fennel, or nettles.

jackie:

And we can do more than one, but maybe just starting with one that you feel called to hear about.

Nicole:

Maybe nettles would be good because it's early spring here and they're really coming out.

jackie:

Yeah,

jackie:

we have to really encourage nettles to grow down here in, in, in Louisiana, but they are one of my favorite plants.

jackie:

So I'd be happy to read a little bit about them and the ways that nettles teach us to be abolitionists.

jackie:

That would be yeah, Nettles.

jackie:

Urtica diocea.

jackie:

Despite its sting, nettle has many helpful qualities.

jackie:

In the garden, it encourages beneficial insects and strengthens the growth of plants like mint and tomatoes.

jackie:

Nettle is a common perennial herb found voluntarily growing on moist forest edges and in meadows.

jackie:

The flowers of both male and female appear on single plants.

jackie:

Wild nettle, sometimes considered a weed, supports over 40 species of insects, including our beloved butterflies.

jackie:

Nettle can be an indicator of nutrient rich soil, can be enjoyed as a tea, eaten in a salad.

jackie:

It's rich in vitamins, minerals, iron, and in all its forms, nettle is a good remedy for anemia, aiding in blood circulation.

jackie:

In fact, nettle, as we know it, was one of the things that the Irish ate during the Great Famine.

jackie:

Medicinally, it's been used to treat the kidneys, the urinary tract, gastrointestinal tract, the skin, the cardiovascular system, hemorrhages, and even the flu.

jackie:

Inflammation from nettles has long been a folk remedy for the treatment of rheumatism, and urtification, or flogging with nettles, is also a treatment.

jackie:

is still used as a remedy for chronic arthritis.

jackie:

According to the herbalist Kelsey Barnett, nettle acts like an old grandmother, whipping you into shape.

jackie:

Coming from love and nourishment, she gives organs, muscles, skin, blood, and the limbs the medicine they truly need.

jackie:

She doesn't waste time.

jackie:

She gets right to the task at hand of cleaning house.

jackie:

The stinging hairs of nettle are composed of silica that inject a plant venom into the skin and cause a temporary rash.

jackie:

The irritation, however, can be eased with nettle juice, dock leaves, jewelweed, rosemary, mint, or sage, or any members of the sorrel family, which usually and conveniently grow nearby.

jackie:

So nettle represents the complexity of existence.

jackie:

These sharp, dinging plants are packed with competing forces.

jackie:

both healing, remedy, and stinging bite.

jackie:

The current justice system leaves no space for human complexity.

jackie:

Abolitionist pedagogy challenges us to create the space for rival truths and competing dualities.

jackie:

How do we build a system that allows for the whole person to be addressed in the face of transgression?

jackie:

To recognize that folks who have caused harm are also wonderful mothers, sisters, brothers, friends, allies, etc.

jackie:

Is it possible to create a system that responds to harm and permits us to nurture the potential of a person?

jackie:

How would this approach encourage collective healing.

jackie:

How does nettle remind us to do so?

Nicole:

Yeah, and nettles are one of the herbs in the Prisoner's Herbal Book as well.

Nicole:

Definitely very abundant where I live.

Nicole:

Thank you so much for sharing that.

Nicole:

I know we don't have tons of time today, but I saw on your website that you're also growing flowers, like, on behalf of incarcerated mothers.

Nicole:

And I just wondered if you could share a little bit more about this aspect of your work, like how it came about and which flowers you've chosen to grow and why.

jackie:

Yeah, I love that project so much.

jackie:

So just, you know, one thing that I am notoriously terrible at is really updating social media or websites or anything like that.

jackie:

So we have this kind of large scale project called Freedom to Grow.

jackie:

And underneath that is all of these different branches.

jackie:

or roots, if you will, of solitary gardens, of Herman's house, of the solitary greenhouse.

jackie:

We have apothecarts and an apotheban and all of these different ways that we are seeding an abolitionist future.

jackie:

And one of those projects is the incarcerated mama's garden.

jackie:

And that began as a collaboration with some folks doing some organizing here in the United States or the colonized United States.

jackie:

80 percent of all incarcerated women are mothers.

jackie:

And so, you know, one of the obvious harms of this far reaching carceral institution, you know, being the United States, the idea that we incarcerate more people than any place else in the world.

jackie:

When you are incarcerating women, 80 percent are mothers, you're fracturing families and causing harm for generations to come.

jackie:

And so the incarcerated mothers garden.

jackie:

has worked with women who are serving what, what we call LWOP's life without the possibility of parole or reframing of that is death by incarceration.

jackie:

So they are sentenced to die in a carceral institution.

jackie:

And at the time when we started this project, there were 42 women incarcerated at the women's institution here in Louisiana, St.

jackie:

Gabriel, who were serving death by incarceration sentences.

jackie:

And we invited them to grow plants with us.

jackie:

In three different spaces, and those spaces were in New York in Houston, Texas and in in in New Orleans, Louisiana, those three gardens and because of these different climates, which We had to choose plants that would grow in, in all three of these very different climates.

jackie:

So that's how we narrowed it down to these 12 flowers.

jackie:

And then we, we sent descriptions and pictures of the flowers to every woman in St.

jackie:

Gabe that was serving a death by incarceration sentence and invited them to choose one, maybe to share some of the reasons why they chose that flower.

jackie:

And then we planted those flowers on their behalf and in those three gardens.

jackie:

And the, the part I love so much about this project is that we also created corresponding seed packets and folks who came to visit the gardens or in the case of, of the one here in New Orleans, the, the garden was part of a gallery exhibition.

jackie:

And so when they visited the exhibition, they could take a seed packet, grow that flower, let's say it was echinacea, and then send us a picture of, of that flower growing.

jackie:

wherever they lived.

jackie:

And then we would send a picture through Flickshop.

jackie:

We would send a postcard with that image on it to every mom who chose that, that flower.

jackie:

So they would see themselves planted around the country.

jackie:

So this idea that they were destined to be immobile for the rest of their unnatural lives, lives serving these death by incarceration sentences, was undermined by the possibility of seeing themselves grow around the country.

Nicole:

Wow, that's such a beautiful offering.

Nicole:

I think for people who Like haven't been in prison or haven't had like intimacy with people in prison.

Nicole:

I think you can't comprehend like how much receiving a postcard like that could be like the reason you stay alive that day if that makes sense and not end your life because Yeah, there's you know, prisons are so obviously traumatic and violent and people are often like on the edge of Suicide somehow so like I think yeah prison the letter writing in general is so amazing because it it's keeps people going.

Nicole:

But yeah, it's such a beautiful offering to also be able to share images of, of plants and herbs like that.

Nicole:

So last, but like really definitely not least, can you tell us a little bit more about the abolitionists apothecary?

jackie:

Yeah, I'd really be happy to do that.

jackie:

I just also want to uplift what you just said and that, you know, very often a letter or a picture or just an acknowledgement that you know someone is alive, who is.

jackie:

Being tortured by a carceral institution, or a death camp in this case, is a lifeline.

jackie:

And there's so many really amazing orgs, like the Lifelines Project, that are connecting folks, Black and Pink is another one here in the U.

jackie:

S., to pen pals around the world.

jackie:

And I do, I would love to be able to share just a couple of quotes from some of the moms about the flowers that they chose and why.

Nicole:

Yeah, I think I really needed to hear this today because I think sometimes I get quite fatigued with the Prisoner's Herbal stuff, like just the labor of like packing and posting books and like the constant like fundraising, drudgery, and like collective organizing stress.

Nicole:

But yeah, like when you really think and talk to people, you just remember like how much that book or like any interaction like that can make a difference to someone.

Nicole:

Yeah,

jackie:

I, I understand the fatigue and exhaustion completely.

jackie:

And, you know, I just had a meeting last night with some other growers to really just, you know, you can't make work that About healing justice and exhaust yourself doing so right.

jackie:

It's like it's counter intuitive and expressive to the ethos of of what we're ultimately trying to do.

jackie:

And so all the ways that we remind each other of that I think is critical to sustaining this work.

jackie:

Yeah, for sure.

jackie:

So, this is a letter from Deirdre, who has recently come home, but while she was incarcerated, she chose Snapdragons.

jackie:

And she wrote, Dear Solitary Gardens, I was so emotional when I saw the kids planting flowers for us.

jackie:

Truly, this is a day to be grateful.

jackie:

The plant I desire to be planted.

jackie:

Even more is the snapdragon.

jackie:

I learned of this flower while incarcerated.

jackie:

The little flower looks as if it is talking, depending on how you move it around.

jackie:

Most importantly, the flower reminds me of children and how they just love to talk, talk, talk.

jackie:

With such beauty and pose, both sets of my heart are at ease.

jackie:

Please continue watching.

jackie:

what you are doing and bridge more gaps with those inside.

jackie:

We are loving what you are doing and look forward to seeing them in the museum one day.

jackie:

Deirdre.

jackie:

Oh, that's so beautiful.

jackie:

It's so beautiful.

jackie:

I'm looking for, let me see, there's one that really moved me.

jackie:

Okay, this one, you know, we, we gave the moms the opportunity to be anonymous if they preferred.

jackie:

And so this one is an anonymous quote.

jackie:

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you.

jackie:

I just wanted to do my flower picking a little different.

jackie:

So I asked a special person in my life to pick what flower she thinks represents me.

jackie:

I feel that we as humans can be biased with ourselves and understanding how important this garden is and the cause of mass incarceration is part of my healing.

jackie:

So my friend, He said, flower number four, echinacea represents me, and this is why she feels like it does.

jackie:

I will quote her verbatim, this flower represents you because of your guidance that you chose to represent in your life.

jackie:

The hedgehog is you with all these different cylinders, all these different spikes, genius and mastermind.

jackie:

You, that's what you are, and you take full advantage of any certain situation you may encounter.

jackie:

Though pretty and small, the center of you is overflowing with dominance and brilliance.

jackie:

I pray you don't mind that I chose to pick my flower this way, but it was special for me to do it.

jackie:

I value the opinion of my friend and just wanted to share this opportunity with someone else.

jackie:

Thank you.

Nicole:

Oh, amazing.

Nicole:

I love that.

Nicole:

Pretty and small, but full of dominance.

Nicole:

That's just like the best like femme energy ever.

Nicole:

So yeah, if you, if you'd be able to just share a bit about the abolitionist apothecary before you leave, that would be amazing.

Nicole:

Yeah.

Nicole:

so much.

Nicole:

I'd be happy.

Nicole:

Sorry, like

jackie:

now I gotta, I'm just looking at all these beautiful quotes and I gotta just divert my attention.

jackie:

So the Abolitionist Apothecary was inspired by a solitary gardener that we grew with for seven years.

jackie:

His name's Warren Chopper Palmer.

jackie:

We call him Chop.

jackie:

And he's since come home.

jackie:

But while he was incarcerated, he, you know, solitary gardeners are encouraged to grow gardens for whatever reason.

jackie:

They like the color of a flower.

jackie:

You know, in the case of Albert Woodfox, he wanted to feed the children that were visiting the gardens.

jackie:

You know, it could be plants that remind folks of, of beloveds.

jackie:

It could be, you know, an homage to someone who has joined the ancestors.

jackie:

Chopper was very intentional about growing plant medicine.

jackie:

He actually learned about plants and plant medicine while he was incarcerated.

jackie:

And so, you know, Chop's family was able to come visit and harvest from his garden many times, but we had this abundance of plants.

jackie:

of plant medicine that specifically came out of his gardens.

jackie:

And while inside, you know, he was he was a voracious grower.

jackie:

Like he ended up growing, I think, three or four gardens rather than just one.

jackie:

And, you know, I have a big old smile here.

jackie:

And so, you know, we started playing with some of the plant medicine that Chop had designed in his solitary garden.

jackie:

And then realizing just how powerful that was.

jackie:

in practice and in metaphor, you know, to really have plant medicine that was designed by someone who was accused of and had harmed someone.

jackie:

And to give that plant medicine back out for free to communities.

jackie:

which, you know, the idea of victim in which these communities in the communities where folks have been harmed, I think really transcends our perceptions of criminality, you know, and the possibility that folks who are incarcerated can actually heal those communities literally and figuratively and, and are, and are ultimately responsible for it, you know, and there's, this beautiful poetic in, in Chop designing one of his gardens with Passypora incarnata or what we call may pop or a passion flower out here, which is a plant that is, is a really powerful in, in helping us move through withdrawals and addiction, you know, and chopper said, if I had access to this, to this knowledge and this plant medicine, when I was 16 years old, you know, when I got caught up.

jackie:

In, in the harm that I caused, I might not have caused it.

jackie:

And so, you know, the, the abolitionist apothecary is born out of that.

jackie:

And we have this big old plant powered apothecary here in New Orleans, where the plant medicine is made from solitary gardens and the abolitionist sanctuary and all of these sister gardens that we're growing.

jackie:

And and then we offer it back out.

jackie:

to communities who are systems impacted to not only, you know, the family members of folks who are incarcerated or folks who have been harmed by others, but to folks who are doing this work for the long haul.

jackie:

So that could be attorneys or advocates or folks who just come in off the street and are like, yo, I can't sleep, you know?

jackie:

And so yeah, the abolitionist apothecary again, is also part of that website, growingabolition.

jackie:

com.

jackie:

And There's a bunch of, bunch of photos online.

jackie:

We document it through Solitary Gardens on Instagram.

jackie:

And it's housed here at the, the John Thompson Legacy Center.

jackie:

So if I could also shout them out.

jackie:

The JTLC has its own Instagram, which is JTLC NOLA, N O L A.

jackie:

And so we're, we're working in concert in, in, in conjunction and coalition with many other folks, mostly folks, you know, that have spent time.

jackie:

inside a prison jail or a detention center.

jackie:

So yeah, it's it's beautiful.

jackie:

It's beautiful, intense work.

jackie:

And I'm just so grateful to be in community with yourself and others who, who see the values the value, the multitude of values that plants give us and gift us and hold us with.

Nicole:

Oh, yeah, for sure.

Nicole:

Before we finish, like, is there anything else you'd like to share?

Nicole:

And also, like, where can people find you or follow you or keep up to date with all your awesome work?

Nicole:

Like, do you need donations?

Nicole:

Or, like, can, is there any ways, like, people can kind of support, like, all this amazing stuff that you're doing?

jackie:

Yeah, thank you for asking that.

jackie:

I think, you know, I'm, I'm notoriously bad at keeping up with social media and updating the websites.

jackie:

But if there is anything urgent or if there's a call to action or a way to support us, I appreciate it.

jackie:

I usually post on our Instagram, which is just solitary gardens, one word, and it's not explicit to the work that we're doing.

jackie:

You know, we are, as I said, in coalition with many others who are facing, you know, what is a super conservative majority here in the state of Louisiana, who's rolled back any recent successes.

jackie:

We've had to decriminalize and decarcerate.

jackie:

And so, you know, now is the time for folks to, to stay awake and engaged.

jackie:

We do have a website we have solitarygardens.

jackie:

org and growingabolition.

jackie:

com.

jackie:

And both of those websites, if you are curious about the work that we're doing, you can deep dive into it.

jackie:

And, and it's just with, with gratitude that I look forward to, to growing and building

Nicole:

with you even more.

Nicole:

Awesome.

Nicole:

Thank you so much for your time today.

Nicole:

It's been really moving and I encourage anyone listening to really just go and look at the photos and read everything on your site and look at the field guide and just, yeah, feel very inspired and strengthened.

Nicole:

And yeah, if anyone is listening from kind of the UK, like, and would be interested in starting something similar here.

Nicole:

I would love to connect with you maybe after the babies come, but yeah, thanks so much again for your time.

Nicole:

And I hope you have a good rest of your day, busy day.

Nicole:

Yeah.

jackie:

And thanks so much for making time for Me and this work and big, big blessings for that.

jackie:

Is it going to be a Taurus, this little baby?

Nicole:

Yeah, unless, unless he comes early and then he might be an Aries.

Nicole:

So we'll see.

Nicole:

No, let's go Taurus.

Nicole:

Let's go Taurus.

Nicole:

What what star sign are you?

Nicole:

Oh, it's a, it's a nightmare over here.

Nicole:

It's Gemini, Sun, Leo rising, Scorpio moon.

Nicole:

Oh, nice.

Nicole:

I had a feeling there was some Gemini in there.

Nicole:

There's lots of Gemini.

Nicole:

Just from like the multiples of projects like that.

Nicole:

So yeah, yeah, I've got a Gemini ascendant.

Nicole:

So kind of.

Nicole:

in that zone a lot as well.

Nicole:

Thanks so much for listening to the Frontline Herbalism podcast.

Nicole:

You can find the transcripts, the links, all the resources from the show at solidarityapothecary.

Nicole:

org forward slash podcast.